Twiggy - An EBB5 bass prototype

[ezbass]

1 minute ago, Smanth said:

Oh dear, ever had that D'oh feeling!?

 

I was doing a final scale length measurement and realised I've reversed the strings!

I'm going to struggle to play a fretless, let alone if it was a leftie!

 

S'manth

 

Better now than later.

[Si600]

Is this a POC or are you actually making it out of framing timber? 

 

I hope you are, though I suspect not. 😜

[3below]

2 hours ago, Smanth said:

Oh dear, ever had that D'oh feeling!?

 

I was doing a final scale length measurement and realised I've reversed the strings!

I'm going to struggle to play a fretless, let alone if it was a leftie!

 

S'manth

Yes, notably when I put the octave marker inlays at the 13th fret on a slotted fingerboard I had made..

[Jabba_the_gut]

4 hours ago, Smanth said:

Oh dear, ever had that D'oh feeling!?

Yep, I have one bass I made with a reverse headstock. Deliberate of course……

[SamIAm]

Some more progress on Twiggy. (For clarity, Twiggy is a 2x4 early prototype where I can learn from my mistakes).

 

Fretboard marked (The correct orientation this time!).

Cavity cut out for the pickup.

Using Xena I've learned several things.

It is possible to CNC a metre long 2x4 on a 3018 ... just not all at once!

There are a number of skills I didn't even know existed that I need to learn.

It is probably not as fast as a skilled woodworker doing it by hand.

The CNC does exactly what it is told unless you tell it to do something impossible (it still tries tho) ... I told it the wrong thing to do a few times so have a cavity that is quite a bit larger than I intended.

 

Starting to think how I'll create the saddles.

 

 

The fret wires are curved and the "fretboard" is flat so I'mPondering how I will setup the 0 fret.  I'm thinking to use the same suggestion by @Andyjr1515as I'm intending for the saddles and embed the 0 fretwire in a 3D printed carrier, I may recess this to avoid having a crazy high action at the head end.  In fact I think I need to recess and drop the head string mount for the same reason.

 

Given the flatness of the fretboard is in question and Twiggy will be fretless, what would be a good height to aim for the top of my 0 fret?

 

S'manth x

Edited June 11, 2022 by Smanth
Added some CNC text

[Andyjr1515]

22 minutes ago, Smanth said:

The fret wires are curved and the "fretboard" is flat so I'mPondering how I will setup the 0 fret.

That is no problem...in fact that is how it should be

 

The frets should be radiussed tighter than the neck (and you certainly will have that with a flat board) and that way they will end up locked in the fret slot.  Assuming you will be initially hammering them in, this is generally regarded as the best sequence:

- you first hammer one side and then the other side.

- most of the barbs will now be inside the slot but the fret has a hump in the middle

- then hammering in the middle - in your case hammering flat - does two things.  First, the rest of the barbs go under the fretboard surface.  Secondly (note the barbs on the tang finish before they get to the flange of the profile itself) flattening the hump forces the wire either side outwards and thus slides the barbs sideways under the wood, locking them in!  This is why when you remove frets it is almost impossible to do without a few chips - because the barb of the tang is now under fresh wood and isn't designed to come out!

- the splaying of the barbs on the tang basically does the same if you use a press. 

[benh]

Just caught up on this, watching with interest - impressive already!

[SamIAm]

3 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

That is no problem...in fact that is how it should be

 

The frets should be radiussed tighter than the neck (and you certainly will have that with a flat board) and that way they will end up locked in the fret slot.  Assuming you will be initially hammering them in, this is generally regarded as the best sequence:

- you first hammer one side and then the other side.

- most of the barbs will now be inside the slot but the fret has a hump in the middle

- then hammering in the middle - in your case hammering flat - does two things.  First, the rest of the barbs go under the fretboard surface.  Secondly (note the barbs on the tang finish before they get to the flange of the profile itself) flattening the hump forces the wire either side outwards and thus slides the barbs sideways under the wood, locking them in!  This is why when you remove frets it is almost impossible to do without a few chips - because the barb of the tang is now under fresh wood and isn't designed to come out!

- the splaying of the barbs on the tang basically does the same if you use a press. 

Thanks Andy!

The specs quoted for the wire are:

 

A= 2.7mm(.106 inch)

B=2.80mm(.110 inch)

C=1.05mm(.041 inch)

D= 1.80mm(.071 inch)

E=0.60mm(.024 inch

F=0.95mm(.037 inch)

 

So if I cut a slot that is say 2mm deep to accommodate D, should the slot width be 0.60mm to match E or closer to 0.95mm to match F? (Or something else lol)

 

S'manth x

[3below]

Closer to E for wooden fretboard, that way the tangs press into the wood.  Fretting saws seem to be 0.022" or 0.5588mm in new money, so a little under 0.6mm.  Since you are using a printed carrier, you have decision to make depending on the toughness and craze / crack resistance of the polymer being printed. Either a tight fit 0.6mm and the tangs press in - with a possible risk of crack/crazing, or a loose fit up to 0.95mm and epoxy it in.

 

I am going to throw another item into the ring, my Warwick fretless has an adjustable nut,  it works really well for dropping the strings just onto the fretboard.  This imo helps get the same(ish) open string tone as fingered notes on a fretless.  I personally really rate them, solves a whole lot of nut fabrication issues (for me). Available on the well known internet auction site dead cheap.

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by 3below

[Andyjr1515]

24 minutes ago, Smanth said:

So if I cut a slot that is say 2mm deep to accommodate D, should the slot width be 0.60mm to match E or closer to 0.95mm to match F? (Or something else lol)

It should be close to D.  The tang (think rectangle DxE) should be a snug fit into the slot.  The barbs, representing the E to F difference, are designed to cut into the wood - and notice that they sit lower than the top of the fretboard.  So in fret fitting, those barbs first cut through the fretboard vertically and, once below the fretboard surface, move sideways under fresh wood.  Clever, really...

 

I've just measured my own fret-cutting saw and, as it happens, the kerf (width of cut) is 0.6mm  

[SamIAm]

12 hours ago, Si600 said:

Is this a POC or are you actually making it out of framing timber? 

 

I hope you are, though I suspect not. 😜

CLS Timber for Studwork and Framing Finished Size 38 x 89mm (4x2 inch) 1.2m Long

• Perfect for making stud walls
• Consistent dimensions
• Kiln Dried for stability
• Smoothed with rounded corners for ease of handling
• Imported for better quality

Purchased last year to use as a mount for a projector but never used ... until now!

Cost me £7

 

It started as a POC, to allow me to try stuff out, make mistakes without minding and generally learn before embarking on Flo.

The problem is that I am starting to fall in love with Twiggy ... I can see me keeping her, maybe even adding an extension at the bottom and playing it in an upright style ...

 

S'manth x

Edited June 12, 2022 by Smanth

[SamIAm]

 

And so in the wee hourse of 12th June 2022, Twiggy burst into life!

I am now a builder of basses (Well, builder of one bass ... so far)

 

I printed a 0 fret mount

 

The fretwire and 0 fret unit are held in place by friction.

 

You can also see the string clamp unit in place, now with a NeoMag Allen key mount.

 

Tuners all set up

 

Mounting plate printed for the pickup.

 

Mid mounting

 

With the pickup mounted also

 

And with the addition of a pen saddle (I ran out of steam!) I am pleased to present Twiggy

 

We moved to the music room (My living room lol), I plugged her in, tuned her to pitch and ...

 

The B0 string sounds OK and is not too floppy.  Given these are a £5 set of random bass strings from Amazon I am happy that a 780mm scale length will work for me.

The tuners are stiff but seem to have a reasonable ratio.  I shall see what happens overnight, if anything pops or the tuning drops.  Definitely need to revisit these (Tho there are a couple of commercial options that would make sense, I particularly like the look of the Nova system ... just need to figure out how to afford them)

The action is way too high.  I can resolve this by milling out a recess at the head for the string clamp and 0 fret (Given the noise this will make and my tiredness this will wait till tomorrow).

Pen-saddle was expedient but will be upgraded tomorrow with 5 separate smaller versions of the 0 fret mount.  I might even add a couple of grub screws to allow me to adjust the saddle height; the intonation will be adjusted by moving the saddles up/down the string.

 

I am starting to fall in love with Twiggy so am now pondering how I might shape the back of the neck to something ... well, less like a 2x4!  I guess this will have a limited lifespan as there is no stiffening or truss rod fitted (Hmmmm ... I suppose I could mill out a space for these)

 

And I need to add something to house the electrics, gaffer tape is just a stopgap!

 

Once I've modified the string clamp, 0 fret and added the saddles I'll adjust the intonation and try to get a recording of Twiggy in action.

 

Time to sleep now ... perchance to dream

 

 

 

S'manth x

 

 

 

[3below]

Like it   To prevent the tuner L brackets rotating could you could print a baseplate with guides?  I am thinking about the guides (fins?) in this hipshot bridge, not the whole assembly.

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by 3below

[SamIAm]

On 12/06/2022 at 08:34, 3below said:

Like it   To prevent the tuner L brackets rotating could you could print a baseplate with guides?  I am thinking about the guides (fins?) in this hipshot bridge, not the whole assembly.

 

 

 

Good idea!  My whole approach to tuners is giving me a headache! lol

S'manth x

[SamIAm]

Saddles are nearly done.

 

A two part assembly.  One holds the fret wire, these are all the same size.  The other holds the first bit, these have a uniform receptacle size but the bottom thickness varies.  Once I've tuned in my desired bridge action I can reprint some in just a few minutes.

 

S'manth x

[Si600]

How about 5 little motors driving five little windlass' to tension the strings. Then you could program Trampa to tune it for you to to play a whole range of differently tuned songs.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Si600

[Frank Blank]

11 minutes ago, Si600 said:

Then you could program Trampa to tune it for you to to play a whole range of differently tuned songs.

 

Could we then program Super Trampa to play Dreamer?

[SamIAm]

2 minutes ago, Si600 said:

How about 5 little motors driving five little windlass' to tension the strings. Then you could program Trampa to tune it for you to to play a whole range of differently tuned songs.

I love it!  Not something I'd considered (I'd need to write a tuner app).  If I did this I could also drive the position of the saddles to autocorrect intonation using a different set of motors.

 

Mad as it seems I was pondering with making the fretboard out of perspex and mounting a number of flexible e-Ink panels underneath, these would be used to display the fret lines & markers.

Want single scale?  Set config A, want a multiscale ... config B ... it could even allow for Righty/Lefty swapping of multiscale.

 

And with the AutoTune, press one button and the whole thing reconfigures.  I could even envisage an approach that would work for fretted basses.

 

Sadly, cost is prohibitive lol

 

S'manth x

[SamIAm]

4 minutes ago, Frank Blank said:

 

Could we then program Super Trampa to play Dreamer?

That would be The Logical way to play a Song.

[Frank Blank]

a) sorry to be flippant

b) really enjoying this thread even though it's all way beyond me

c) carry on

[SamIAm]

Just now, Frank Blank said:

a) sorry to be flippant

b) really enjoying this thread even though it's all way beyond me

c) carry on

Flippant is good and very welcome!

Glad you're enjoying it, it is great fun to be doing it.

I shall ... tho the next step is getting the tuners "better" and an elegant approach is escaping me at present.

 

S'manth x

[Si600]

5 minutes ago, Smanth said:

I love it!  Not something I'd considered (I'd need to write a tuner app).  If I did this I could also drive the position of the saddles to autocorrect intonation using a different set of motors.

 

Mad as it seems I was pondering with making the fretboard out of perspex and mounting a number of flexible e-Ink panels underneath, these would be used to display the fret lines & markers.

Want single scale?  Set config A, want a multiscale ... config B ... it could even allow for Righty/Lefty swapping of multiscale.

 

And with the AutoTune, press one button and the whole thing reconfigures.  I could even envisage an approach that would work for fretted basses.

 

Sadly, cost is prohibitive lol

 

S'manth x

That's the trouble with the yoof of today. No vision or drive.

 

*shakes head whilst looking sadly at a gone out pipe and frayed slippers*

[Si600]

 

Elegant tuner on an inelegant back of envelope. 

 

Or...... how much movement does a tuner actually need, could you adapt the fine tuner mechanism on a Floyd Rose style trem to work?

[3below]

1 hour ago, Smanth said:

Mad as it seems I was pondering with making the fretboard out of perspex and mounting a number of flexible e-Ink panels underneath, these would be used to display the fret lines & markers.

 

S'manth x

Not at all mad, Mrs 3below dabbles with lap steel guitar, paper print outs under perspex are sometimes used for the fret position markers, although there is obviously no string contact.

[3below]

1 hour ago, Si600 said:

 

Elegant tuner on an inelegant back of envelope. 

 

Or...... how much movement does a tuner actually need, could you adapt the fine tuner mechanism on a Floyd Rose style trem to work?

Having never owned a headless bass I am interested to know how much tension you need to get on the strings before locking and tuning, and as @Si600asks, how much movement is needed.  Me, I like headstocks, stops my left hand falling off the end of the bass