Guitars Just Won't Stick to the Recording

[dclaassen]

I think it all depends on the type of gig, amount of time you have spent with the group, and what resources are available. I have recently joined a covers band. We have a rehearsal tonight, and a gig on Saturday. My goal is to 1. get the chord progressions and style right..then 2. do the appropriate riffs in the right places...then 3. start to incorporate unique things the band does with certain songs, and also to be able to anticipate and react to mood changes in each song. I think this is a process, and takes a while to really get comfortable with in a new group. 

 

For jazz or legit music, I can sightread and always have a lead sheet or the printed part in front of me. If it is really difficult, or just written weird (a lot of contemporary big band stuff), then I learn that in chunks so I am not really reading every note, just the phrases. 

 

FWIW, I really don't like improv jam sessions with Real books...I find them boring and just full of ego and fluff. Just not my bag..I do it to be polite. 

[wateroftyne]

8 minutes ago, dclaassen said:

For jazz or legit music, I can sightread...

 

What is.... 'Legit music'?

[FinnDave]

1 minute ago, wateroftyne said:

 

What is.... 'Legit music'?

I assume it's music you'd want to run away from (or leg it).

[BigRedX]

IME learning covers note for note (for band purposes) is only relevant if your band has exactly the same instrumentation as the recorded version, including all the easily picked out overdubs. Almost everything else will require some adjustment to the arrangement, and that's what sets a good band apart from the others when it comes to covers in that they know how to rearrange the song to play to their strengths and avoid weaknesses. My experience specifically as a bass player is that songs from the 60s up to punk, often have several instruments covering the bass part, and the bass guitar is by no means necessarily the most important one. Quite often I found myself having to come up with something that was a mixture of the bass guitar and the left hand of the organ/piano part(s) in order for the song to still have the same bottom end impact as the recoded version the audience would be familiar with.

[SteveXFR]

When I see a band like Queens Of The Stone Age or Black Rebel Motorcycle Club or Foo Fighters live I'd get bored and leave if the played exactly the same as the record. If I want to listen to the record then I'll listen to the record. 

When I play covers with a band, as long as everyone works around the original chords then it's all good. Note for note covers always sound boring to me, music is art, imitation is not.

[fretmeister]

9 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

 

What is.... 'Legit music'?

 

 

You can always tell "legit music" by the size of the audient. (singular).

[dclaassen]

11 hours ago, FinnDave said:

I assume it's music you'd want to run away from (or leg it).

Sorry…must be an Americanism. When studying music at uni, you were either a jazz player or a legit (classical) player

[Downunderwonder]

Here was me thinking my jazz band plays legit written down scores to packed halls, we must be doing something wrong.

[Dan Dare]

On 18/04/2022 at 19:55, ZilchWoolham said:

Right. Well, that's all good. But then you are in fact making it out by ear. 

 

Sometimes. A number of music creation software packages will give you notation from a recording, which can be handy on occasions where parts can be hard to discern on listening.

[fretmeister]

12 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Here was me thinking my jazz band plays legit written down scores to packed halls, we must be doing something wrong.

 

So do I with my Big Band. But that doesn't affect the comedy of it.

 

To be honest it really annoys me.... I play jazz because I don't like crowds but the sods turn up anyway.

[Leonard Smalls]

50 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

I play jazz because I don't like crowds but the sods turn up anyway

You're playing the wrong kind of jazz then!

Play a cacophonous racket with no discernible beat and definitely no melody, and you may just about get some chin-stroking polo-necks in!

 

[BigRedX]

12 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

You're playing the wrong kind of jazz then!

Play a cacophonous racket with no discernible beat and definitely no melody, and you may just about get some chin-stroking polo-necks in!

 

I saw Evan Parker at the Huddersfield New Music Festival. As well as his ensemble on-stage there was also a bunch of people with laptops manipulating the sounds for each instrument in real time. I'm sure the playing was technically accomplished, but a troop of chimps could have achieved the same effect. All-in-all it sounded like a poor quality cabaret Voltaire B-Side but went on much, much longer. And the venue was absolutely packed...

[MichaelDean]

On 18/04/2022 at 13:21, paul_5 said:

Or just count 9/16ths! 😄

Reminds me of a drummer my brother used to play with. Couldn't play in a tempo that couldn't be easily divided into a minute as he was attempting to count the bpm in his head 😅 Needless to say he was not very good at keeping time! Lovely bloke though.

[shoulderpet]

On 20/04/2022 at 12:01, Leonard Smalls said:

You're playing the wrong kind of jazz then!

Play a cacophonous racket with no discernible beat and definitely no melody, and you may just about get some chin-stroking polo-necks in!

 

My god that sounds f@!king awful, what a racket

[Leonard Smalls]

13 hours ago, shoulderpet said:

My god that sounds f@!king awful, what a racket

One person's cacophonous din is another's Mariah Carey... 

😁

[TimR]

On 17/04/2022 at 11:13, Blaze Esq said:

I hang well. I can improvise. Not enough said.  My bread and butter is note for note playing. I can when guitar players say "Yeah I know that one." But then they don't really. Or there a ton of versions of it. I am a cover guy, who can hang with improvising and jamming. It just annoys me. A guitar player says "I know 'Gimme Three Steps'" But they don't hit the licks or something. I learned that note-for-note. I guess bass players have the same rep or something. It could be my note for note learning, but it does annoy me when I play the lick and the band is lost. I am new to this channel. I suppose I might want to start a topic called something like "Sitting in Frustration". Sololei frustration? They think we "just" play bass? It could just be me. Tell me which recording you want to play, or don't. If you don't, don't complain I did not "know" the bass line you wanted. If all of that makes sense. 

 

I just "jam" alot, but I find guitarists are so demanding without the discipline if they are not straight pros. 

 

 

Pulling this apart a bit.

 

I think what you're complaining about is double standards. 

 

Guitarists who aren't playing note for note, asking you to.

 

This is a difficult one to deal with. Sometimes they're just trying to cover their bad playing by deflecting attention to you. I've had that a few times, I've played something note for note, the guitarist has then insisted we listen to the original, then played the bass line on guitar, badly and loudly, I'll repeat exactly what I'd played before, and they'll say, yes that's it.

 

I don't worry about it too much now. Played for years with a terrible drummer who convinced me I was out of time and wrong. They went through 3 bass players very quickly after I left and I recently spoke to their latest bass player who was having the same issues 10 years later. 😁

 

Ultimately no band plays it exactly as per the recording, even if they think they do.  

[Muzz]

5 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said:

One person's cacophonous din is another's Mariah Carey... 

😁

Fixed it for you...

[dclaassen]

I think there often a double standard. I just finished a jazz real book session ( not my favorite thing to do) and felt real pressure to nail every chord change and keep it stylistically accurate, and follow Byzantine explanations all while keeping great time. Soloist, however, have tons of freedom to play anything that pops into their heads. Just a expectation we live with.

[fretmeister]

Well the OP hasn't been back so I suspect he got upset that not many were on "his side."

 

 

[GrowlyBassDude]

I don’t think it’s guitarists or bass players, or anyone specifically - it’s just lazy people. Not learning the song properly is a real pet hate of mine.

 

My take on this is that when you learn something note-for-note, you might learn something new rather than playing your interpretation of the song. There are often things in the original parts that make the song groove in a certain way, or gives the song light and shade. 

[Dad3353]

6 minutes ago, GrowlyBassDude said:

I don’t think it’s guitarists or bass players, or anyone specifically - it’s just lazy people. Not learning the song properly is a real pet hate of mine.

 

My take on this is that when you learn something note-for-note, you might learn something new rather than playing your interpretation of the song. There are often things in the original parts that make the song groove in a certain way, or gives the song light and shade. 

 

I think there's a difference between 'learning' a song and 'playing' a song. I would agree that, when learning, a note-accurate version would be the initial goal. When playing it, however, I'd accord much more liberty to choose how to do so, either 'as is' or with personal variances. It becomes 'playing by rote', otherwise. Just sayin'. 

[GrowlyBassDude]

8 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

I think there's a difference between 'learning' a song and 'playing' a song. I would agree that, when learning, a note-accurate version would be the initial goal. When playing it, however, I'd accord much more liberty to choose how to do so, either 'as is' or with personal variances. It becomes 'playing by rote', otherwise. Just sayin'. 

Total agree. I typically learn note for note, so I know what makes the song work, then add my own variances. Sometimes more, sometimes less. 

[TimR]

Add to annoyances on this theme, people who have no musical training and are unable to count bars or understand two and four bar phrases.

 

Trying to explain to someone last week that they're playing a 4 bar phrase twice and just because the last bar of that repeated phrase contains the same run that the following 6 bars contain, doesn't mean it's a 3 bar phrase followed by 7 bars of a repeated phrase. Arghhh.

 

 

[Dad3353]

30 minutes ago, TimR said:

...doesn't mean it's a 3 bar phrase followed by 7 bars of a repeated phrase...

 

But it could do. 

[TimR]

3 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

 

But it could do. 

 

It leads to confusion when communicating with other players. In the same way as calling a G# when the song is in Eb.