Who makes whos guitars?!

[DocTrucker]

Caught a comment in a post in this forum which in retrospect makes sense, but I hadn't given much thought to. Some of the major brands selling bass guitars are at least out sourcing the manufacture of their budget to mid price ranges to other well known, but uncredited sub contract manufacturers.

 

Do we have any collection of who makes who's guitars?

 

I appreciate the situation is likely fluid, and somewhat muddied by Fender / Squire like branding where the affordable brand could either be using less expensive hardware/material, sub contractors, or other cost cutting measures - not suggesting Squire is definately sub contracted rather than built by squire.

 

These arrangements are not wholesale bad, I just like transparency. I see them a bit like signature models of basses and gear. The brand could be doing anything from changing a label through to negotiating a specific/higher spec at a cut price based on their buying power.

 

Are there big bass guitar brands that don't make any of their own basses?

[Rayman]

Samick makes everything for everybody. It's the only guitar factory in the world. Everyone else is lying. 

[kodiakblair]

2 hours ago, DocTrucker said:

Are there big bass guitar brands that don't make any of their own basses?

The biggest has to be Ibanez , they have never had a factory of their own. Peavey  closed their guitar plant in 2010 so everything since has been subbed out.

 

Others I remember are.

 

Cort have built for Squier, G&L , Ibanez and PRS.

Saein built  for Epiphone and Peavey.

Samick did Squier, Epiphone and Peavey.

Zheng'an build Tagima and some Ibanez.

NBE Corp build the Spector Euro line, Esh and NS Design. They also do the Peavey HP-2 with yet another Cirrus reissue in the pipeline

InYen Vina built for ESP and Peavey.

[DocTrucker]

That's quite a list, cheers! I spotted some of the kit built guitars shared a common manufacturer and wondered how comon it was with the big brands.

 

It almost looks like an easier question would be who makes their own, although apart from the manufactors above I'm guessing thats the £££ options!

[kodiakblair]

1 minute ago, DocTrucker said:

That's quite a list, cheers!

I doubt I've even scratched the surface 😃

 

Dingwall have a line built in China , Sadowsky have a Japanese and German range . Bacchus Japan and Indonesian lines.

[Munurmunuh]

51 minutes ago, kodiakblair said:

Cort have built for Squier, G&L , Ibanez and PRS

 

Do they do SBMM as well?

 

I believe Yamaha are all built in house, as they own their own factories in Indonesia and China

[Doctor J]

Fujigen built/build Japanese Fender, Ibanez and probably a good few more.

[BigRedX]

The thing is that all these factories that build guitars for multiple "brands" will build to the price set by the customer, and will differ in the quality of materials used and the amount of time a QC spent on any of the hand assembly and finishing tasks. That means, two extremely similar looking instruments from the same factory, but made for different customers may well have nothing in common other than the basic instrument shape and the fact that they were made under the same roof. Ultimately knowing which factory an instrument comes from is a complete red herring.

[BassBunny]

2 hours ago, kodiakblair said:

The biggest has to be Ibanez , they have never had a factory of their own. Peavey  closed their guitar plant in 2010 so everything since has been subbed out.

 

Others I remember are.

 

Cort have built for Squier, G&L , Ibanez and PRS.

Saein built  for Epiphone and Peavey.

Samick did Squier, Epiphone and Peavey.

Zheng'an build Tagima and some Ibanez.

NBE Corp build the Spector Euro line, Esh and NS Design. They also do the Peavey HP-2 with yet another Cirrus reissue in the pipeline

InYen Vina built for ESP and Peavey.

Cort also make Lakland Skyline range.

[DocTrucker]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

Ultimately knowing which factory an instrument comes from is a complete red herring.

I understand the view point. I found it interesting to tie together where the instruments came from as while they may be able to cut price, they are limited to how well they can build instruments by their machinery, tooling, and Luithers.

 

I was vurious to see hiw wide spread the practice is, but it does seem in house is on the rare side. You'd likely never find out the detail but knowing where the design expertise reside would be telling.

[kodiakblair]

2 hours ago, Ricky Rioli said:

Do they do SBMM as well?

No idea.

 

28 minutes ago, DocTrucker said:

they are limited to how well they can build instruments by their machinery, tooling, and Luithers.

Not really.
 

Guitars and basses are simple things to build. St Leo's business model was ditch luthiers for semi-skilled factory workers. Hartley Peavey went one better, machines + unskilled labour.

 

The only thing limiting factories are as @BigRedX said , the conditions set by the clients. Fender are a good example here. Fender Japan instruments for export are built to lower standards than the ones sold in the Japanese market. The same " build to lower standard" conditions apply to Fender Mexico and Fender China.

[BigRedX]

For a Fender-style instrument there absolutely no reason these days why one factory can't churn out instruments of exactly the same standard over and over again and to exactly the same standard as any other factory in the world. After all the wooden parts are all done by CNC machines, the design of the hardware has barely changed over the past 70 years, and the assembly is only marginally more complicated than fitting together a typical bit of flat-pack furniture. The price differentiation is done to the quality of the raw materials and the standard of QC control that is applied to those processes that require the hand assembly and finishing. That's set by what the client who's brand name appears on the headstock wants to pay per unit. 

 

That's why the factory producing these instruments is irrelevant. You'll find that to only people who want you to care about the factory itself are those selling instruments at the budget end of the range who want you to associate them with the kudos that goes with the instruments from the premium range from the same factory.

[prowla]

Japan:

• Matsumoku made many brands, including Aria, Vorg, and many more; they went out of business in the 80's and the factory allegedly burned down .
• FujiGen Gakki still makes Ibanez and made Fenders.
• Chushin Gakki made El Maya, Jackson & Charvel.
• Tokai still have a Japanese operation.
• Kasuga made guitars.
• Teisco made budget guitars including Audition, Top Twenty, and other brands in the 60's and were taken over by Kawai.

I expect @Bassassin would be able to use his encyclopaedic knowledge to expand on the above!

 

In the US, Rickenbacker make Rickenbackers!

[TheLowDown]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

That's set by what the client who's brand name appears on the headstock wants to pay per unit. 

This is so true and what so many people don't appear to realise, even now. There are still people who believe that all things made in China and the East is of low quality, oblivious to the fact that it was the parent company who instructs the manufacturing arm to make cheap quality gear, and this is why China had in previous decades, undeservedly got a bad rep.

 

Almost all of the world's manufacturing are in that area of the world now and they will produce everything from low quality rubbish to high quality perfection depending on what they're paid and what they're instructed to produce by the company's name written on their products.

 

This also applies to the individual factory, most if not all of which are capable of producing everything from cheap quality to perfection depending on what they're told to produce. With products like basses and the level of machining available now, I can't see anything being of anything other than very decent quality at a minimum.

Edited February 6, 2022 by TheLowDown

[yorks5stringer]

Assuming most of the stuff made in Indonesia is made by similarly paid workers, the cost differential between cheap and less cheap will be in the hardware and quality/appearance of the wood and some minor hand-finishing.

[Vin Venal]

4 hours ago, prowla said:

Japan:

• Matsumoku made many brands, including Aria, Vorg, and many more; they went out of business in the 80's and the factory allegedly burned down .
• FujiGen Gakki still makes Ibanez and made Fenders.
• Chushin Gakki made El Maya, Jackson & Charvel.
• Tokai still have a Japanese operation.
• Kasuga made guitars.
• Teisco made budget guitars including Audition, Top Twenty, and other brands in the 60's and were taken over by Kawai.

I expect @Bassassin would be able to use his encyclopaedic knowledge to expand on the above!

 

In the US, Rickenbacker make Rickenbackers!

 

What depth of the Ibanez range is made by Fujigen do we know? Presumably all of their affordable lines are Indonesia or China these days?

 

I think my EHB is Indonesian.

[prowla]

6 hours ago, TheLowDown said:

This is so true and what so many people don't appear to realise, even now. There are still people who believe that all things made in China and the East is of low quality, oblivious to the fact that it was the parent company who instructs the manufacturing arm to make cheap quality gear, and this is why China had in previous decades, undeservedly got a bad rep.

 

Almost all of the world's manufacturing are in that area of the world now and they will produce everything from low quality rubbish to high quality perfection depending on what they're paid and what they're instructed to produce by the company's name written on their products.

 

This also applies to the individual factory, most if not all of which are capable of producing everything from cheap quality to perfection depending on what they're told to produce. With products like basses and the level of machining available now, I can't see anything being of anything other than very decent quality at a minimum.

There are some very good guitars made in China; unfortunately a lot of cheap inferior ones and counterfeits are churned out from lesser makers. 

[Bassfinger]

9 hours ago, kodiakblair said:

The same " build to lower standard" conditions apply to Fender Mexico and Fender China.

We hear this all the time, but does anyone have any actual emprical evidence of this?  People seem quick to trot out impressions and opinion, but for such a bold and oft repeated claim the dearth of evidence seems strange.

[prowla]

7 minutes ago, Bassfinger said:

We hear this all the time, but does anyone have any actual emprical evidence of this?  People seem quick to trot out impressions and opinion, but for such a bold and oft repeated claim the dearth of evidence seems strange.

The Fender brands and ranges are positioned to certain price points.

[Grahambythesea]

Peerless in Korea made semis for Gretsch, Ibanez, Epiphone (including the Jack Casady) but production costs got too high so they lost the contract and now produce their own brand.

 

[tegs07]

17 hours ago, kodiakblair said:

The same " build to lower standard" conditions apply to Fender Mexico and Fender China.

Fender are an odd one in that some of their signature and premium ranges are sometimes produced in Mexico and Japan. Then they occasionally produce some cheaper ranges that are excellent.

The only Fenders I have kept are MIM and MIJ. I’ve sold on USA ones as they were a bit Meh .. 

[LukeFRC]

15 hours ago, TheLowDown said:

This is so true and what so many people don't appear to realise, even now. There are still people who believe that all things made in China and the East is of low quality, oblivious to the fact that it was the parent company who instructs the manufacturing arm to make cheap quality gear, and this is why China had in previous decades, undeservedly got a bad rep.

It’s oft repeated on US based forums that anything imported must be bad and low quality… I find it a odd view point to think that a country can’t build a simple solidbody guitar and then broadcast that view via a advanced technological device made in that country…

[kodiakblair]

@Tegs

Makes sense to build sig models in Japan or Mexico, the lower labour costs help towards the artist kickback. Peavey did the same for the Ellefson Zodiac and Sarzo Cirrus. 

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 16, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Lw.]

18 hours ago, prowla said:

There are some very good guitars made in China; unfortunately a lot of cheap inferior ones and counterfeits are churned out from lesser makers. 

Out of curiosity; have you got any examples of the very good guitars? For example, what do you think is the best quality bass you can buy that was made in China? 

 

I'm all for the "it doesn't matter where the machines are located" argument, I just can't really think of an example in this case.