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Phaedrus

Do I Need A 410 Or Will 210 Suffice?

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"My" TNT150BW is actually my Dad's amp and he said last night that I can do what I want with it - sell it, trade it in or keep it.

As alluded to in other threads, it's great - versatile (specially paired with my drummer's TE BLX80) and solid, but that solidity comes at the cost of weight. I'm tired of carrying two heavy combos around. The TE isn't actually far off the weight of the TNT, believe it or not, and they take up a fair bit of space in the van.

We're attempting to streamline our gear (aiming for one pre-connected PA amp rack; smaller, lighter personal gear), and lower our on-stage volume to allow better FOH sound from our PA.

My personal effort toward this is replacing the two heavy combos with one smaller, lighter combo.

We play mainly rock covers - Killers, Green Day, U2, Limp Bizkit, RATM, Velvet Revolver, AC/DC, Hendrix, Pearl Jam, RHCP, Snow Patrol, Foo Fighters, etc.

We mostly play pubs & clubs to anything from 100 to maybe 300 (maybe more - who does a head-count at their gigs?).

We have been talking recently about also nailing a setlist that we could play at parties, functions or even weddings.

We have a 4300w PA with two Yamaha P5000S amps powering four 1x18" JBL JRX118S subs (1x18" each) and a JBL MPA750 amp powreing two JBL JRX125 mains (2x15" + horn each).

We use four HK Audio Powerworks 120w 1x12 + horn active monitors through which we put just vocals and the small bit of keyboards that we use.

Drummer uses an acoustic 5-piece Sonor kit. We'll be putting a DDrums trigger on the kick from now on and put just the electronic kick through the PA and rely on the acoustic kick for on-stage feel for the band. We tried the full electronic kit before but there was no on-stage feel from the drums.

Guitarist has been using a Peavey XXX 120w valve head into a Peavey 4x12" cab, but has started to see the light that lower volume on stage will result in better quality sound from the PA. He's moving back to his Marshall Valvestste 100w 2x12" combo. That's still really loud, but it can still get good tone at lower volumes cos it's not a valve amp.

I'm looking for a new set up that will tick these boxes:

Versatility of tone
Reasonably light & portable
Ability to cut through the band even when volume does creep up (relying on headroom, not on some mid-boosting)
Can be used with no PA support in rehearsals
Under €800. The farther under that, the better
Combo would be much preferred, but not essential

My current combo shortlist is:

Eden Nemesis NC210 Combo
[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=k_PVqHzmkekAAAETSNo9M2Mr&CatalogCategoryID=LBnVqHzm6ccAAAERPZsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]

Eden Nemesis RS210 Combo
[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=fyzVqHzmwmwAAAETXYo9M2Mt&CatalogCategoryID=LBnVqHzm6ccAAAERPZsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]

G-K Backline 210 Combo
[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=HO_VqHzmfjUAAAET.RE9M2Mt&CatalogCategoryID=LBnVqHzm6ccAAAERPZsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]

Laney RB7 Combo
[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=N3_VqHzmM9kAAAETNL49M2Mt&CatalogCategoryID=LBnVqHzm6ccAAAERPZsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]

Warwick CCL210 ND Combo
[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=qCzVqHzmsJsAAAETujc9M2Mt&CatalogCategoryID=LBnVqHzm6ccAAAERPZsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]

Eden Nemesis NC410 Combo
[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=TCvVqHzmQmQAAAETTto9M2Mr&CatalogCategoryID=LBnVqHzm6ccAAAERPZsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]

Eden Nemesis RS410 Combo
[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=vf3VqHzmhGEAAAETbYo9M2Mt&CatalogCategoryID=LBnVqHzm6ccAAAERPZsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]

Eden Nemesis NC212 Combo
[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=pZ7VqHzmcPEAAAETc4o9M2Mt&CatalogCategoryID=LBnVqHzm6ccAAAERPZsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]

Separates shortlist is:

Warwick ProFet 3.2 Head
[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=H0nVqHzmIeMAAAET7jQ9M2Mt&CatalogCategoryID=tz3VqHzmB2IAAAERQpsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]

with either

Warwick W411 Pro 410 cab
[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=TLrVqHzmDy8AAAETVM89M2Mt&CatalogCategoryID=ZW7VqHzmCJYAAAEROpsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]

or

Warwick W112 ND 210 cab
[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=eG7VqHzmbl0AAAETP2A9M2Mt&CatalogCategoryID=ZW7VqHzmCJYAAAEROpsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]

The Peavey Tour 450 + TVX410 4ohm cab would also be in the running if it weren't so heavy (over 7 stone!)

Either of the 4x10 Nemesis combos would be great, but they're out of my budget, [i]UNLESS[/i] I get advice that one would be a great option.

I'm probably leaning towards one of the 2x10 combos. I already have a combo amp stand, which will point it up to me. I aim to have the on-stage volumes just right for the band, but not interfering with the FOH sound from the PA. The low end punch & balls will come from the PA, not the onstage instrument amps. We've got 2400w into four 18" subs to look after that.

I know there's a similar thread recently, but I'm trying to include all my specifics here so that some of the gang out there can best advise me. Stretching to €1000 isn't really a runner, but even if it was, keeping it small & light as possible is important. Money no option? Why the [b]Mark[/b]Bass CMD102P of course :) !

[url="http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/MusicStore-MusicStoreShop-Site/en_EN/-/EUR/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=TOZgS8fSZObR0000000000000000Sm5UIpDe?CatalogVideo=&ProductUUID=d6HVqHzmkz4AAAETLUE9M2Mt&CatalogCategoryID=LBnVqHzm6ccAAAERPZsvKPl9&JumpTo=OfferList"]http://www.musicstorekoeln.de/is-bin/INTER...umpTo=OfferList[/url]


Thanks for any replies,

Mark

Edited by Phaedrus

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i can vouch for the Warwick stuff being good for Rock music, its also quite cheap unless you go Neo. I'd try and get the 4ohm version of that 411 pro 4x10 so you can drag the full 300 watts from the 3.2fet head.

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I'd definitley go for a 410, given the band line up and the sort of music you play.

Even though you're using the PA for most of your out front volume I think you'll find that a 210 just won't shift enough air for you to be able to hear yourself over the drummer.

I'd also avoid the Laney - I've never played through one that was any use.

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If you are going to be playing at any sort of volume, you will really will benefit from the 4x10 setup... however, your back and the general effort involved after a gig when loading the car and getting the gear back in the house is a bit of a git.

I went for two 2x10 cabs and its one of the best moves I made. I can fit the 2 cabs on their ends next to each other in the boot of the car, something I could never do with a 4x10. It may cost you a little extra, but I think the hassle factor of the 4x10 is well worth taking into account and maybe investing a little extra money...

As an aside, you will get the full power from your head/combo (e.g. a 2x10 combo with a 2x10 extension). I have found myself putting the speakers in all different combination. Short of space? Stack the speakers vertically. Want seperation/monitors, play with one speaker one side of the stage, one the other. I've even had the speakers on a shelf to make more room on the floor for the drummer. Of course, when I do the small quiet jazz noodle gigs, I take just the 2x10. It works for me, it may work for you.

Get a couple of Warwick 2x10s or a couple of Edens and you'll have no problems.

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[quote name='Phaedrus' post='52811' date='Aug 30 2007, 02:38 PM']Can anyone else even pretend to be interested? :) :huh:[/quote]

Ok I'll pretend. :huh:

Sorry mate - no exprience of that gear but I do agree with your overall pihilosophy

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If it were me, I'd go for a head and 2 2x10 cabs. Unless you get a combo, you won't get the full whack out of your amp unless you use both. Also, stacking 2 2x10s on end on top of each other is going to create a proper wall of bass.

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[quote name='EBS_freak' post='52836' date='Aug 30 2007, 03:39 PM'][size=1]If you are going to be playing at any sort of volume, you will really will benefit from the 4x10 setup... however, your back and the general effort involved after a gig when loading the car and getting the gear back in the house is a bit of a git.

I went for two 2x10 cabs and its one of the best moves I made. I can fit the 2 cabs on their ends next to each other in the boot of the car, something I could never do with a 4x10. It may cost you a little extra, but I think the hassle factor of the 4x10 is well worth taking into account and maybe investing a little extra money...

As an aside, you will get the full power from your head/combo (e.g. a 2x10 combo with a 2x10 extension). I have found myself putting the speakers in all different combination. Short of space? Stack the speakers vertically. Want seperation/monitors, play with one speaker one side of the stage, one the other. I've even had the speakers on a shelf to make more room on the floor for the drummer. Of course, when I do the small quiet jazz noodle gigs, I take just the 2x10. It works for me, it may work for you.

Get a couple of Warwick 2x10s or a couple of Edens and you'll have no problems.[/size][/quote]
+1 on the 2x2x10 idea. A single 2x10 wouldn't (I fear) be enough.
Have you decided against 12s? I noticed that one Eden combo is the only 12-equipped kit on your list, and you've only really mentioned 10s.

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Yaaaay!

Rehearsed 4 or 5 times with a BA115. Couldn't get any sound either I or the band liked, even when the singer, who also plays bass and owned the rehearsal rooms and all the gear, tried to help.

I've been thinking that I might just go for a 2x10 combo and later on if that's not enough, add another 2x10 cab or a 1x15 cab.

But I suppose then I'm back to two lifts, though a 2x10 combo + extra cab will take up pretty much the same room as a 4x10 combo, which is still less than my current two combos.

I just realised today that the MarkBass CMD102P can be had for under €1200. 50% over budget, €500 dearer than the NC210, €450 dearer than the RS210, €350 dearer than the NC410 and €200 dearer than the RS410. I had been under the impression that it'd be more than double the price of even the Nemesis 4x10 combos.

I guess an NC410 or RS410 would give me more simplicity, headroom & versatility for more varied situations and still be comparitively light.

Could all be moot anyway. Our singer has landed a contract fitting discreet security cameras in shopping malls and will be working all over the country every night till christmas. So even if he could get back to Dublin for gigs on Fridays or Saturdays, we won't be able to rehearse midweek anymore. He'd be nuts not to try to maintain that kind of work if it's there, so I'd actually expect him to say "sorry lads, but..." in the near future.

EDIT: No - not decided against 12s.


Mark

Edited by Phaedrus

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Who owns the PA?

Anyway - back on topic. It depends how loud the drummer is but you are not gonna get a lot of watts and 4x10 for your budget unless you buy crap gear or get it used. If the drummer is an animal 2x10 probably wont be enough.

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The pair of 2x10 is the way to go. I had a pair of Markbass 2x10 driven by a markbass LMII. As said above, use one or two cabs according to the gig. Plus stacking 4 speakers high means a small footprint on stage.
Frank
Phaedrus, see my PM.

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I know where there was an Ashdown ABM 500 watt 4x10 combo going for £400 if you don't mind a drive up north of the border to pick it up. PM me if you might be interested and I'll see if I can get hold of the guy...

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I am going to say that a singel 2*10 should be enough if your goal is to keep stage volume down. My MB Standard 210 HF is plenty enough for me, as it is all PA supported.

Try the single route first.

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All these euro signs hurt my face.


Why not get a high watted neo 112 or 210 combo and add an extension if needed and when able to afford? Or how about a Hartke 3500 410 combo? - heavy mind.

Best of luck with the gear search.


paul.

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[quote name='bassbloke' post='52858' date='Aug 30 2007, 04:26 PM']Also, stacking 2 2x10s on end on top of each other is going to create a proper wall of bass.[/quote]

Bill Fitzmaurice may have something to say about that...!

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We own the PA ourselves.

I'm getting all excited about a CMD102P now.

The overall goal is indeed to keep stage volume as low as possible, but as loud as necessary.

Drummer has always be an out-and-out hard hitter, but he's listened to me and has read everything I've printed out from the web about the pros of low (or "appropriate") stage volume vs the cons of excessive stage volume, and he's fully on-board with the thoery & concept, so he's adopting what's known as "dynamics" into his playing. He's trying lighter sticks, damping the kick skin and using a DDrums trigger on his kick instead of micing it, playing lighter, using smaller crash cymbals (noticeably quiter), swapping his three snares around to see which is quiter - all good stuff.

Guitarist is coming round too, so I'm thinking 2x10 combo is what I'm opting for. But who knows?

I plan to sell my Tune TWB53FM and my Dad's TNT150BW to fund the new amp. I've been offered an RBX375 for nothing (cousin has deserted bass for widdly-widdly 6-strings). I'll give him €100 for it - clearer conscience. That'll be my back-up bass to my BB605, itself a cheap bass, but SOOO much more than an entry level bass.

Modest lotto win? TRB1005 as main bass, BB605 as back-up.

Of course we have to find a replacement for our singer who confirmed yesterday he can't continue with the band cos of work commitments.

PM'd you back, Machinehead.

Mark

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My drummer must be closest to the loudest drummer in the worls...honest! Most smaller gigs I use a nemesis NC210 combo, bigger gigs I use I markbass SA450 into a Nemesis NSP115 which is just awesomely loud. If I'm playing outdoors - I couple it to a Trace 2 x10 - but it's more for show - it's just so loud with the 1 x 15 on it's own.......

Nemesis NC210 is good - give it a try!

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