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And Justice For All.......Criminal!


ubit

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22 minutes ago, Jason Karloff said:

And that St Anger album gets abuse because of solely the drum sound? 

I haven't heard it. 

No, there's much more to abuse that album about than the drum sound, but it's the low hanging fruit, as it were... 

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They've had a few absolutely brilliant albums but at least as many absolutely stinking albums. 

St Anger was pretty terrible in most ways. Load was pretty weak. S&M just plain sucked.

 

Everything they did with Cliff was superb but after that they've been a bit hit and miss.

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1 hour ago, Graham said:

It's my favourite Metallica album, but that mix 😡

 

To think how it could have sounded.

 

It's also heartbreaking for Jason, he wrote Blackened, so it's his song opening the first album he recorded with them but then finds he's inaudible.


 

As you say, it’s a cracking album but when you realise that the lows you are hearing are just from Hetfields guitar it gets annoying. If the frequencies were getting lost change the bloody settings. Every other band in the world manages it. A heavy metal band with no bass? Whoever would have thought it?

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2 hours ago, fretmeister said:

 

 

Not quite - the version the Bass Channel did was carefully constructed from watching and listening to live performances of the tracks.

 

Ok, the guy from the Bass Channel used his fingers instead of a Pick, but they are Jason's parts.

 

They also have individual tracks with much louder bass to learn from. They did have individual proper mix as well, but Metallica's record label got upset about that.

 

 

I don't listen to the original anymore - I listen to this version. It's much better.

 

So yeah then, considering they never played The Frayed Ends of Sanity, Dyer's Eve or To Live is to Die when Newsted was in the band so there were no live performances to watch or listen to 😉

 

It's a fine effort, a really fine effort, but the three or four solo tracks of Newsted's original playing are absolutely ferocious and you can't replicate that without using a plec - and I say this as someone who plays with fingers 99% of time.

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Newsted is a monster player and deserved better than that. I’m sure with the money involved I would get over it quickly but to not be featured on an album you are credited with is a pretty poor show old bean. 

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15 hours ago, Jason Karloff said:

I haven't listened to that in years. 

Do you think it's worth a revaluation? 

 

You say you want revaluation ... well, you know ... we all want to change the world.

 

😉

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1 minute ago, Happy Jack said:

 

You say you want revaluation ... well, you know ... we all want to change the world.

 

😉

It certainly costs more these days

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I found the Bass Channel version of Justice about a year ago, I wouldn't listen to any other version now - Josh DuBois' playing is on the nail, fits perfectly & the mix is superb.

 

Justice is a massively important album for me - it was my introduction to Metallica, and restored my faith in metal as a genre after the direction it took through the 80s. Along with all the horrid cheese-pop 'metal' of the 80s, I'd also been oblivious to the burgeoning underground of extreme genres, and Justice helped open my eyes & ears to that, too. I'd also suggest that it's a highly important album in the development of the progressive metal genre.

 

The sad truth seems to be that Metallica - specifically Ulrich & Hetfield - were happy to become the very same corporate, buck-chasing sellouts that they would once have claimed to despise, and the way Jason was treated, both in 1988 and when the insulting remaster of Justice was released, is a symptom of that attitude. He was just an employee, never a band member.

 

For me, Justice was the band at the peak of their creativity, much as I love the Cliff albums (which obviously I heard after Justice) it's a massive step forward musically & compositionally, and it's reasonable to assume Jason deserves some of the credit for that. I remember an interview with Ulrich at the time of the Black Album, he said something along the lines of Metallica facing a fork in the road after Justice - either go full on and make the next record a prog concept album - or be a little bit more like AC/DC. I'm not much of a fan of the Black Album.

 

Anyway - funny/not funny? O.o
 

image.png.7e382e263b1e19ee42c2bc34ee329b1b.png

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Not sure what the issue is, a lot of people think it is one of their best albums (clearly it isn't) so if that is the case it obviously didn't need any bass on it. And it is hardly an injustice for Jason, he got paid just the same and I am assuming made a nice living on it.

 

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18 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Not sure what the issue is, a lot of people think it is one of their best albums (clearly it isn't) so if that is the case it obviously didn't need any bass on it. And it is hardly an injustice for Jason, he got paid just the same and I am assuming made a nice living on it.

 

Creatively it is. If I discovered half my monthly reports were never read or had the titles changed and given out as something else, I'd be pretty miffed, despite receiving a fair salary.

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2 minutes ago, Daz39 said:

Creatively it is. If I discovered half my monthly reports were never read or had the titles changed and given out as something else, I'd be pretty miffed, despite receiving a fair salary.

 

And so angered by it he decided to leave the band 13 years later!

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24 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

And so angered by it he decided to leave the band 13 years later!

So you've never had the job of your dreams and felt obligated or pressured (by yourself) to stick it out and make things better, and later having too much inertia (and yes, dosh) to consider leaving yet. I'd have left my current job years ago if I was half as brave as all the keyboard warriors who complain about employees standing up for their rights when being treated horribly, while staying put. Jason's situation may be a little better - but did he want to be labelled as the whinger who quit Metallica after a couple of years because they wouldn't let him do what he wanted - that's exactly how band management would have sold it. By all accounts he enjoyed touring and certainly did better creatively out of Load and Re/Load, so maybe he did achieve something in the end.

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1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Not sure what the issue is, a lot of people think it is one of their best albums (clearly it isn't) so if that is the case it obviously didn't need any bass on it. And it is hardly an injustice for Jason, he got paid just the same and I am assuming made a nice living on it.

 

 

Controversial 😂

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I have NEVER heard a heavy metal album that didn't benefit from earth shaking bass guitar. I await the replies showing me I'm wrong but I just thought bass was the fundamentals of heavy music. Maybe I have been wrong all these years.

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3 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said:

 

The actual problem was they mixed it in Dobly. Everyone knows you don't do heavy metal in Dobly!

 

 

But just listen to that sustain. It keeps on goin' listen.

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I have always got annoyed when people slagged off Lars Ulrich for his poor drumming. I think he's a good drummer and doesn't deserve this angst he gets but I really think that he must be an annoying little twatt personally. After seeing the movie which was pretty much warts and all, it seems that he is a spoiled rich guy who has to get his way. Hetfield doesn't sound much better. Hammet and Trujillo seemed more down to Earth guys who were heard and not seen if you know what I mean.

All in all I reckon if I met Lars in a pub and he said something sideways I'd chin the wee c***t!

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His drumming isn't poor, it's genuinely terrible. He was decent, back in the day. Definitely. After the black album, he stopped practising and he's really, really bad. Once Metallica became 'tallica, that's where it turned to sheeeeite.  Listen to any of the live stuff from the last 25 years in where he chucks in one bass drum strike per verse on the fast stuff. Nah, I don't actively dislike the guy - he's the only one who cones out of SKOM with any credit at all - and he does come across as immensely dislikable quite frequently, but I will not stand idly by and watch people defend his drumming. No. I'm not having that.

 

On a related tangent, Mustaine has claimed that Metaliica had Dave Lombardo lined up to replace Lars at the end of the Puppets touring. Cliff's death stopped that from happening, of course. Lombardo was out of Slayer at the time so there a whiff of plausibility to it. When Lombardo played Battery in 2006 with them (I think) we caught a glimpse of what might have been.

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50 minutes ago, ubit said:

I have NEVER heard a heavy metal album that didn't benefit from earth shaking bass guitar. I await the replies showing me I'm wrong but I just thought bass was the fundamentals of heavy music. 

 

Well, I personally prefer bass to things, but I don't think it is as fundamental as some other music types. A lot of metal is very middly / guitar sludgy, and bass doesn't really help with that. 

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2 hours ago, Daz39 said:

So you've never had the job of your dreams and felt obligated or pressured (by yourself) to stick it out and make things better, and later having too much inertia (and yes, dosh) to consider leaving yet.

 

No, I have never had too much dosh to consider leaving a job!

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2 hours ago, ubit said:

I have NEVER heard a heavy metal album that didn't benefit from earth shaking bass guitar. I await the replies showing me I'm wrong but I just thought bass was the fundamentals of heavy music. Maybe I have been wrong all these years.

 

You aren't wrong. You can't have heavy without bass.

Edited by SteveXFR
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