Perennial Unwanted B-String Overtones

[SumOne]

 

 

25 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Neck and neck joint construction play a major role in getting a good sounding low B string (along with matching the correct string to the bass and your playing style). It's unsurprising to me that the higher quality basses have the best sounding and feeling low B strings. I've yet to come across any 5-string bass that retails at under £1k that is any good in this respect.

 

 

Just now, chris_b said:

 

Sorry, no idea about other basses. In 20 years I've only played these 3.

 

 

This is as I thought and is helping me justify the idea of gettting a higher-end 5 string!

[Rayman]

Anyone mentioned action? Sorry if yes..... 

 

I used to love a super low action, and had an issue with the output on the B...  a Stingray and an ESP Horizon spring to mind.

 

I've since raised my action to about 3mm at the 12th on my Aria 5er, and the B, via some EB Super Slinkys (pink, light gauge) rings like a piano.

[TheLowDown]

I've never had a 5 or 6 string without the problem with the low B string. The heavier the gauge the worse the problem gets.

 

There is some theory that the strings have to be in balance. So the gauges selected for 5 string that work 'ideally' on that must be rebalanced to work on 6 string or 7 string or even 4 string. In other words for the 6 string for example you can't just add a C string and expect it to work ideally using the same gauges on B-G.

Edited January 10, 2022 by TheLowDown

[Grimalkin]

1 minute ago, TheLowDown said:

I've never had a 5 or 6 string without the problem with the low B string. The heavier the gauge the worse the problem gets.

 

Agreed. I've found the further up the neck, the more the timbre changes and the more overtones. The B is designed to be more efficient at lower frequencies obviously.

[dclaassen]

I am relatively new at 5'ers but, so far, here is my experience...

-Heavier gauge strings have a more profound overtone "thump"...I use a 125 B with light gauge Elixer nanowebs

-I raised the action a bit...that seemed to help clarify the tone..kinda like a classical guitarist does

-Find the "sweet spot" on your bass. Mine is pretty even, but, still, it sounds great on all strings between the 5th and 12th fret. 

-If you are playing with fingers on your right hand, try "floating" your thumb over the strings, muting when needed, instead of anchoring somewhere. I got this from a really great bassist I know, and it have really cleaned up my 5-string playing. Not so noticeable on a 4. 

-Use a light touch on the B string.

 

Hope some of this helps. I have not played many other 5 string basses and am a bit spoiled with mine. I think the Ebony board helps as well. 

 

 

 

[SumOne]

1 hour ago, dclaassen said:

I am relatively new at 5'ers but, so far, here is my experience...

-Heavier gauge strings have a more profound overtone "thump"...I use a 125 B with light gauge Elixer nanowebs

-I raised the action a bit...that seemed to help clarify the tone..kinda like a classical guitarist does

-Find the "sweet spot" on your bass. Mine is pretty even, but, still, it sounds great on all strings between the 5th and 12th fret. 

-If you are playing with fingers on your right hand, try "floating" your thumb over the strings, muting when needed, instead of anchoring somewhere. I got this from a really great bassist I know, and it have really cleaned up my 5-string playing. Not so noticeable on a 4. 

-Use a light touch on the B string.

 

Hope some of this helps. I have not played many other 5 string basses and am a bit spoiled with mine. I think the Ebony board helps as well. 

 

 

 

 

All good advice, but also in your signature I see you are playing a Pedulla MPV 5 which is a Bass I'd not heard of but just looked up and looks very nice...and has a £5,750 list price at Bass Direct. This is all helping to strenghten my argument with my bank account that to have a good B string generally seems to need a high-end Bass. 

 

 

 

[Gwilym]

2 hours ago, SumOne said:

 

All good advice, but also in your signature I see you are playing a Pedulla MPV 5 which is a Bass I'd not heard of but just looked up and looks very nice...and has a £5,750 list price at Bass Direct. This is all helping to strenghten my argument with my bank account that to have a good B string generally seems to need a high-end Bass. 

 

 

 

 

I disagree that you necessarily have to spend a lot of money. Maybe if you're picking an instrument at random, you're less likely to have problems from a "high end" bass than a mass produced bass, but arguably that's because the expensive bass is more likely to have a good setup (costing time and money) than a less expensive off the shelf bass.

You have to play it to find out.

 

[Maude]

Nothing to add other than that title is a great  blues backing band name. 

 

Blind Willie Fiddler and the Perennial Unwanted B-String Overtones. 

[dclaassen]

3 hours ago, SumOne said:

 

All good advice, but also in your signature I see you are playing a Pedulla MPV 5 which is a Bass I'd not heard of but just looked up and looks very nice...and has a £5,750 list price at Bass Direct. This is all helping to strenghten my argument with my bank account that to have a good B string generally seems to need a high-end Bass. 

 

I got really lucky with it…although it still needed setting up to balance the B string

 

 

[FDC484950]

Unwanted wolf tones or overtones are IMHO mostly down to two root causes:

1) pickups too close to the string

2) twist in the string

 

You've already adjusted the string. It’s very easy to twist the B string slightly when fitting. Fender-style bridges where it’s a hole that the string is brought through but with short bridge screws (and therefore a small gap between saddle and back of bridge) are the most prone to locking the string in place. I had a Fender Dimension with a thick high mass bridge and it was almost impossible to fit the string without twisting it. The symptoms are a dull string and strange annoying overtones. You might be able to restring it but in many cases the string is already knackered. It’s not talked about much but I’ve played quite a few basses that have a dull B where a new string, very carefully fitted, made a big difference.

 

It’s never been a problem for me with a bass that has a long run from the saddle to the back of the bridge (e.g. a Warwick with a separate tail piece).

 

Whilst a high end bass should have better quality materials and construction it’s no guarantee of a good B. I played a £10K Fodera whose B string was rubbish (it wasn’t the string), and the Sire V7 I owned had a better B than the US Fender Ultra I owned before it at less than a third the price.
A stiff, consistent neck with good contact points at nut and bridge and a partially taperwound B tend to help. Neck material doesn’t really make much of a difference - my Canadian Dingwalls and Music Man Sterling/Big Al all have fantastic B strings, and previously I’ve had a Modulus Q6 and a Ken Smith BSR Elite G with an outstanding low B.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Machines]

2 hours ago, FDC484950 said:

Unwanted wolf tones or overtones are IMHO mostly down to two root causes:

1) pickups too close to the string

2) twist in the string

 

You've already adjusted the string. It’s very easy to twist the B string slightly when fitting. 

 

This is my experience too.  I've neutralised by loosening the string till you can push it loose through the bridge a few mm and it turns back to a natural position. 

[BigRedX]

14 hours ago, Gwilym said:

 

I disagree that you necessarily have to spend a lot of money. Maybe if you're picking an instrument at random, you're less likely to have problems from a "high end" bass than a mass produced bass, but arguably that's because the expensive bass is more likely to have a good setup (costing time and money) than a less expensive off the shelf bass.

You have to play it to find out.

 

IME no amount of "good set up" will produce a decent sounding and feeling B-string from a bass that is incapable of producing it. 

[dclaassen]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

IME no amount of "good set up" will produce a decent sounding and feeling B-string from a bass that is incapable of producing it. 

Agreed, but what is the basics that would allow a good sound and feel from the B string....I'll admit I have only really played on 2 five-string basses, so have limited experience here. 

[SumOne]

Possibly others have a different definition of 'high-end'  but lots of Basses mentioned in this thread as having good B string are things like: Canadian Dingwalls, Modulus, Ken Smith, Pedulla, Marleaux, Sadowsky, Mike Lull, they are all pushing towards or sometimes well above the £3k mark and aren't Basses you can even buy at shops like Thomann and Andertons where the average price is more like <£1k. I think a lot of general punters would see a £1k Bass and think it's quite expensive when there are £300-£600 Squier/Ibanez/Yamaha type alternatives.  I know a few cheaper Basses have also been mentioned though so I guess ocasionally a relatively cheap Bass can have a good B string if it's all well set up and you're lucky.

 

I guess it's partly due to high-end Basses having good set-ups but it must also be down to the whole package of things like how precicely they are engineered, quality control, how the neck joins the body, the materials used and overall resonance, pickups and preamps, bridge and nut, etc.

 

And I suppose it depends on what you call a 'good' B string, some people quite like one that sounds tonally different to the other strings or has overtones. Once I'm playing through a few pedals and an Amp/Cab I'm not too fussed as it's hard for anyone other than me to notice and I probably wouldn't even know that's not how they all sound had I not recently played a few high-end Basses in shops which have better B string feel/sound  - like it's more integrated with the other strings..... I kind of wish I hadn't played those high-end basses though as it's got me wishing I had one when I was quite happy with £1k Basses before!

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by SumOne

[dclaassen]

I wonder about the difference in bolt-on vs through neck construction. Mine is through neck, and is both very stable and resonant. It makes sense to me that a stronger neck to body join would help to improve the consistency of a low B.

[Grimalkin]

I've found that Stingray5's have a decent B string, even if they still haven't got the string spacing right...

 

The most comments I've had on the solidity of a B string, is this TRB5 Mk1 I bought new around '98. I used it quite a bit for around 15 years:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[StickyDBRmf]

And there's no one on BassChat that plays a contrabass with a F# string? Because I'm a Stick player and my low string is either A or Bb and I'm not crazy about it either. D'Addarios roundwound and I've thought of going a little thinner...

[BigRedX]

10 hours ago, StickyDBRmf said:

And there's no one on BassChat that plays a contrabass with a F# string? Because I'm a Stick player and my low string is either A or Bb and I'm not crazy about it either. D'Addarios roundwound and I've thought of going a little thinner...

 

@Dood

[Dood]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

@Dood

 

Cheers BRX, yeah, there's quite a few of us hitting the low tunings. Sometimes I drop to E0 as well. 

Sorry, that was the question in reference to @StickyDBRmf? I've not read the entire thread.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Dood
typo

[FDC484950]

On 11/01/2022 at 12:47, dclaassen said:

Agreed, but what is the basics that would allow a good sound and feel from the B string....I'll admit I have only really played on 2 five-string basses, so have limited experience here. 

I don’t have exact numbers but would be willing to guess that I’ve had a good play on over 1000 different 5- and 6-strings (I’ve owned well over 200). I’ve not played every make and model of course but for example,  I have played several Fender Jazz 5s going back 20 years, Stingray and Sterling 5s from the early 90s to 2020, loads of Yamaha and Ibanez, Corts, over 50 Warwicks (various models), to more esoteric makes like PRS, Patrick Eggle, MPG (remember Matt Pulicinella?), all even reasonably well-known British makes to through neck and/or bolt-on Roscoe, Tobias, MTD, Ken Smith, Sadowsky, Fodera, Dingwall, Spector, Lakland, G&L, Modulus, Alembic, F-bass, Pedulla, Zon… the list goes on

 

I want the same thing on every bass: for the B string to have the same basic tone, character and clarity as the other strings - right up the fretboard to the 12th fret and beyond.
 

Best 34” scale B - Warwick Streamer LX with Wenge neck. Warwick Streamer Stage 1, Ken Smith BSR Elite G and Modulus Quantum Q6 a close second, honourable mention for Sire V7.

 

Best B on any bass - Dingwall ABZ.

 

Worst B - any Fender Jazz 5 (literally every single one I’ve played or owned had a rubbish B). Roscoe Beck and Dimension 5 were OK.

[silverfoxnik]

On 10/01/2022 at 21:23, FDC484950 said:

Unwanted wolf tones or overtones are IMHO mostly down to two root causes:

1) pickups too close to the string

2) twist in the string

 

You've already adjusted the string. It’s very easy to twist the B string slightly when fitting. Fender-style bridges where it’s a hole that the string is brought through but with short bridge screws (and therefore a small gap between saddle and back of bridge) are the most prone to locking the string in place. I had a Fender Dimension with a thick high mass bridge and it was almost impossible to fit the string without twisting it. The symptoms are a dull string and strange annoying overtones. You might be able to restring it but in many cases the string is already knackered. It’s not talked about much but I’ve played quite a few basses that have a dull B where a new string, very carefully fitted, made a big difference.

 

It’s never been a problem for me with a bass that has a long run from the saddle to the back of the bridge (e.g. a Warwick with a separate tail piece).

 

Whilst a high end bass should have better quality materials and construction it’s no guarantee of a good B. I played a £10K Fodera whose B string was rubbish (it wasn’t the string), and the Sire V7 I owned had a better B than the US Fender Ultra I owned before it at less than a third the price.
A stiff, consistent neck with good contact points at nut and bridge and a partially taperwound B tend to help. Neck material doesn’t really make much of a difference - my Canadian Dingwalls and Music Man Sterling/Big Al all have fantastic B strings, and previously I’ve had a Modulus Q6 and a Ken Smith BSR Elite G with an outstanding low B.

 

 

 

 

 

 

+1

 

This has been my experience too.. Its so easy to accidentally put a twist into a string when you're putting it on for the first time and, as well as contributing to overtones eyc, if there's a twist, then it makes it almost impossible to intonate the string accurately. 

 

I currently have an Xotic XJ1T 5 string bass that's a 34" scale neck and the B string on it is really well defined and is balanced with the other 4 strings in terms of volume and tone. There are no horrible overtones either. 

[SumOne]

I've noticed with my American Standard Jazz V that by only using the bridge pickup I get even tones e.g. play a chromatic scale from the B string through to the E and it's hard to hear where the string has changed, which makes me think that the issue isn't with the Bass construction. It's a different story if using only the Bridge pickup though - the B has more 'growly/overtone' sound than the more fundamental/smooth sound of the E and other strings, this continues having tried different strings (and string height and intonation) and different pickup hight and different playing style so I'm wondering if it's actually down to the Bridge pickup being too 'hot' for the B - has anyone here changed a passive Jazz V pickup and managed to get more even/smoother/more fundamental tone from it? Or perhaps adding an active preamp (e.g. John East J-Tone) helps?

[Hammeron]

Hi everyone,

 

Firstly thanks for all your input, much appreciated.

 

Since I last visited I've made two changes which seem to have improved the sound of my B-string somewhat.

 

First change was: I installed a brass bridge(Hipshot A-style) on the instrument. When I first received the bass a brass bridge was on it already, but I switched to an aluminium bridge, my thinking was about the weight of the bass primarily and also I thought the aluminium bridge sounded punchier. My bass is very resonant, and there is a noticeable difference between the brass and aluminium bridges in how the instrument feels and sounds. The brass bridge seems favour a stronger fundamental, whilst the aluminium seem to be more "airy" favouring higher frequencies. I admit that this topic is subjective to many people, but I really think that my bass has a stronger, deeper resonance with a heavy lump of brass attached.

 

Second change, if you could call it a change, was: I took the time to properly intonate the B string, as best I could. I used the tuner on my DAW, previously I had been using a clip on tuner, and spent the best part of a frustrating hour trying to get as close as I could to perfect intonation on the B string. Here I will hold my hand up and say that I never really sat down and spent any time on B-string intonation before, as many of you will probably agree it can be a pain in the ar**e. But the results are noticeable, my B-string still has it's own character, but less of the unwanted overtones are present. 

 

Bellow is the bass in question, a Pavel Aryel Deluxe, made for me by Pavel Del Fuente in 2016.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Hammeron

[SumOne]

^^^

It's taken me about 3 months with my latest Bass but I've also found that fine-tuning the B string intonation has really helped, and very small adjustments to the B string height and height of pickups, and more of a 'rolling' sort of way of plucking it, that and a bit of subtle drive and compression it doesn't sound out of place from the other strings now. I think spending a few months with the Bass to fine-tune my playing style to suit it was perhaps the biggest factor.

[Hammeron]

Hi folks.

 

A quick update.

 

Previously unexplored by myself: Round Core vs Hexagonal Core.

 

An aspect that I had just overlooked.

 

I've been using Hex core strings for some time now.

 

I tried a Round core B recently(courtesy of Neil at Newtone Strings) and the bad overtones are very much reduced... almost gone(to the degree that it does not cause me to cringe and consider quitting 5 string bass when I play an F# on the 7th fret of the B)... for the seemingly simple reason that the string just has less inherent stiffness, and vibrates more like an actual string than a farmyard fence. This seems to be an issue of how stiff a string is rather than one of how much tension the string is under, the complaint of a "floppy B string" is a completely different matter.

That been said, the unwanted overtones are still present but they are not as noticeable and now sound less intrusive to the fundamental of the note, they even have a slightly lower pitch on some notes.  

 

The discontinued LaBella strings that mentioned earlier in this thread turn out to have been round cores... and I'll be using round cores from now on, thanks very much Neil 👍.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Hammeron