Legalities of being in a covers band…

[gapiro]

Just now, TimR said:

 

 

I have added to my post. Seems some songs have been licensed to YouTube to play.

Yep.  Basically youtube has agreements with most major labels/artists/etc and those agreements are secret. Some will make you have an advert and then claim the ad money themselves, some will just want a credit, some will remove, it is entirely down to the rights holders and they have the ability to change at any time what they feel like. (*provided you haven't licensed it - if you have paid for a license you should be golden)

[warwickhunt]

I was under the impression that PAT testing was just the power supply / IEC power lead.  I needed to use some of my bass and PA equipment in a school show and the head offered to have the equipment tested to cover them/me.  The tester simply tested the plug leads and said the actual equipment they were attached to had no relevance.  

 

I'm also another who can vouch that in 40 years of playing music I have been asked to ensure I had my PAT certs and PLI on numerous occasions (normally corporate events/venues) and they have NEVER actually looked at them.  One venue insisted on this and upon arrival we were asked to set up in an outdoor marque with dodgy extension leads daisy chained from an outdoor shed that had no screws holding on the socket plate/cover... we walked.  

[TimR]

9 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

I was under the impression that PAT testing was just the power supply / IEC power lead.  I needed to use some of my bass and PA equipment in a school show and the head offered to have the equipment tested to cover them/me.  The tester simply tested the plug leads and said the actual equipment they were attached to had no relevance.  

 

As the amplifier is electronic there are tests they can't do as it'll risk damaging it. 

 

They should check earth continuity between chasis and ground though. 

 

Most damage is done to plug tops and leads so that should be spotted by a visual. And people did used to remove earths but not a problem for moulded plugs. 

 

Also our drummer has a fan and some people use mains powered lights. 

 

One gig I played we had a new keys player. His keys kept cutting out. After checking all my PA and leads I decided to look at his keys. The screws in the terminals of the plug top were loose and the wires kept pulling out as he was tapping his foot on the ground. His reply was "I'll just keep my foot on top of it while I'm playing to stop it moving."

 

1 minute to rewire it. 

 

I binned the drummer's extension cable that he'd 'repaired' after his rabbit had chewed through it. 

 

Not everyone has the same understanding or standards. PAT means someone who knows what they're looking at, has looked at it, and you have a record of who it was and when it was.

Edited December 23, 2021 by TimR

[la bam]

12 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

I was under the impression that PAT testing was just the power supply / IEC power lead.  

 

No, if it's a separate iec lead then its both parts, the item and the power lead.

[TimR]

I also had a PAT guy who didn't understand transformer inrush and wanted to take my 13amp fuse out and replace it with a 5 amp because it was 'only' a 500w amplifier. 

 

So watch out for electricians downgrading fuses on amps.  

[alyctes]

IMO you can argue about the legalities of PAT testing as much as you like, but if your kit burns the venue down and someone gets seriously hurt then you are liable to wind up on the front page of the Daily Star.  That is not the sort of publicity anyone needs. 

[gapiro]

2 minutes ago, alyctes said:

IMO you can argue about the legalities of PAT testing as much as you like, but if your kit burns the venue down and someone gets seriously hurt then you are liable to wind up on the front page of the Daily Star.  That is not the sort of publicity anyone needs. 

don't get me wrong, I don't want that, but the point I hate is that PAT testing is a completely unregulated industry with no standards and no definitions of what it must contain. 
Therefore quality is variable and yet people overcharge for it all

[BigRedX]

19 minutes ago, TimR said:

I also had a PAT guy who didn't understand transformer inrush and wanted to take my 13amp fuse out and replace it with a 5 amp because it was 'only' a 500w amplifier. 

 

So watch out for electricians downgrading fuses on amps.  

 

The fuse in a mains plug is there to protect the lead not the equipment it is powering (which should be fused separately) so if the cable is rated at 13A then it should be fitted with a 13A fuse.

[alyctes]

4 minutes ago, gapiro said:

don't get me wrong, I don't want that, but the point I hate is that PAT testing is a completely unregulated industry with no standards and no definitions of what it must contain. 
Therefore quality is variable and yet people overcharge for it all

Understood. 

It's a long time since I did it; how much does it cost to get a tester's qualification nowadays?  The course I did was a one-day one, organised by my employer.  That seems as if it might be a way forward.

Edited December 23, 2021 by alyctes

[alyctes]

12 minutes ago, alyctes said:

Understood. 

It's a long time since I did it; how much does it cost to get a tester's qualification nowadays?  The course I did was a one-day one, organised by my employer.  That seems as if it might be a way forward.

 

A quick search gives £175 plus VAT, one day; plus the cost of the test equipment.  Completing it successfully would provide a certificate of competence.  I have no idea how representative that cost is.  Not going to happen for most amateur bands, I guess.

Edited December 23, 2021 by alyctes

[TimR]

30 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

The fuse in a mains plug is there to protect the lead not the equipment it is powering (which should be fused separately) so if the cable is rated at 13A then it should be fitted with a 13A fuse.

 

Well, yes and no. There is also a guide that says equipment under 700w should be fused by a 3A fuse and over 13A. And additional guide that says use a fuse as recommended by the manufacturer. 

 

So my amp is fused by a 10amp fuse.

 

Check your TV, it'll probably have a 5amp fuse. 

 

In practice it's not black and white. 

[TimR]

If you can get all the band to drop their gear to your house. A PAT guy should guy should able to do everything in a couple of hours. Worst case it'll cost you £100 a year. 

 

But it depends on your electrical competence. If you are competent to visually check leads and plugs, do it and watch the condition of your band mate's equipment. All it takes is someone to trip over an extension cord to dislodge the terminals. So take the tops off the pugs and check for security. The electronic tester does this by checking resistance. 

 

But don't whatever you do, lie to someone who asks if it's tested, or just get a load of stickers from your local wholesalers and stick them on.  If it goes to court and they find out you lied, then your credibility as being trustworthy is gone. Guilty your honour. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by TimR

[BigRedX]

43 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

Well, yes and no. There is also a guide that says equipment under 700w should be fused by a 3A fuse and over 13A. And additional guide that says use a fuse as recommended by the manufacturer. 

 

So my amp is fused by a 10amp fuse.

 

Check your TV, it'll probably have a 5amp fuse. 

 

In practice it's not black and white. 

 

No the amp itself should have it's own fuse - either accessible from the back panel or somewhere on the circuit board and will probably be a "slo-blo" to compensate for in-rush on the power up. The fuse in the mains plug is just for the lead between the mains socket and the amp.

[TimR]

6 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

No the amp itself should have it's own fuse - either accessible from the back panel or somewhere on the circuit board and will probably be a "slo-blo" to compensate for in-rush on the power up. The fuse in the mains plug is just for the lead between the mains socket and the amp.

 

Yes. I know that. 

 

Maybe write to the IEE, IET and BSI and get them to change the wording in the regs then. 

[Paul S]

55 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

Well, yes and no. There is also a guide that says equipment under 700w should be fused by a 3A fuse and over 13A. And additional guide that says use a fuse as recommended by the manufacturer. 

 

So my amp is fused by a 10amp fuse.

 

Check your TV, it'll probably have a 5amp fuse. 

 

In practice it's not black and white. 

 

Been years since I had a black and white TV.

[gapiro]

1 hour ago, alyctes said:

 

A quick search gives £175 plus VAT, one day; plus the cost of the test equipment.  Completing it successfully would provide a certificate of competence.  I have no idea how representative that cost is.  Not going to happen for most amateur bands, I guess.

Because there is no such thing as a defined PAT test, there is no such thing as a course for it...

All the law says is that a competent (which is agian, undefined) person has inspected (undefined) the equipment at an appropriate (undefined) interval

[TimR]

3 minutes ago, gapiro said:

the equipment at an appropriate (undefined) interval

 

I think there are recommendations on testing intervals based on usage and type of installation in the regs. So while not set in stone, you'd have to explain why you have decided to test regularly  every 10 years. 

[la bam]

Just to put it into context - if theres no pat test and the worst happens and it's your fault, you're pretty much in as much trouble as can be. Chances are you're not insured (insurance will have in the small t&cs that there must be proof of regular testing, even pat testing) and you've not proven that you have taken any steps to ensure safety. You've turned up with kit that has not been tested and no insurance (or invalid insurance), and therefore take the consequences, just as you would have to with any other circumstances.

 

Theres a reason most pli is now £10,000,000 cover. If you think a couple of quid can sort out an accident then you're way off ....

 

The fact that it isnt specifically a legal requirement shouldnt even be an issue. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by la bam

[alyctes]

8 hours ago, gapiro said:

Because there is no such thing as a defined PAT test, there is no such thing as a course for it...

All the law says is that a competent (which is agian, undefined) person has inspected (undefined) the equipment at an appropriate (undefined) interval

 

That's interesting.  I only spent five years doing it.

[gapiro]

59 minutes ago, alyctes said:

 

That's interesting.  I only spent five years doing it.

Show me a definition of a PAT test, other than 'generally followed principles' ...

Some do a far more thorough job than others - eg one theatre I work at got a multi meter out and checked the resistance from the metal casing to earth pin on the IEC connector. 
Some just plug it into a pat testing machine and don't know what it actually does. 
Some check insulation resistance, most don't. 
Some check plug socket wiring (most machines do though)

Some have RCD testers, some don't

 

[Jakester]

9 hours ago, la bam said:

Just to put it into context - if theres no pat test and the worst happens and it's your fault, you're pretty much in as much trouble as can be. Chances are you're not insured (insurance will have in the small t&cs that there must be proof of regular testing, even pat testing) and you've not proven that you have taken any steps to ensure safety. You've turned up with kit that has not been tested and no insurance (or invalid insurance), and therefore take the consequences, just as you would have to with any other circumstances.

 

Theres a reason most pli is now £10,000,000 cover. If you think a couple of quid can sort out an accident then you're way off ....

 

The fact that it isnt specifically a legal requirement shouldnt even be an issue. 

 Nope, I disagree. If you have bought decent gear and there’s nothing in that particular piece of gear’s manual saying you need to get it serviced or tested regularly then, absent some known fault to which you turned a blind eye, you would probably be fine. For example I’m pretty sure there is nothing in my Markbass amp manual saying it needs to be serviced or tested [edit: or, rather, needing regular servicing - it actually says “Refer all servicing to qualified service personnel. Servicing is required when the apparatus has been damaged in any way, such as power-supply cord or plug is damaged, liquid has been spilled or objects have fallen into the apparatus, the apparatus has been exposed to rain or moisture, does not operate normally, or has been dropped” ] likewise my Yamaha powered PA speakers. 

 

Indeed, it would probably be worse if you had it tested once and then didn’t do it again, since you might be deemed to be aware of the need for testing but didn’t bother. If there WAS something saying you need to have it serviced, but you don’t, and that item then causes loss or damage, you *might* be in trouble, but only if it was unreasonable for you not to have had it serviced, and that lack of servicing was a causative factor in any damage.

 

Basically you owe a duty of care to take reasonable precautions against loss and damage. If the operating manuals for your gear don’t say have it serviced, then you’re probably fine as it would be a reasonable step to comply with the manufacturer‘s recommendations.

 

Insurance almost certainly won’t say you need proof of testing - it will say comply with manufacturer’s recommendations if it says anything like that at all.

 

For info I’m a lawyer of 15 years’ post qualification experience and spent 10 years of my career dealing with claims for insurers and advising insurers on coverage, of which many were PI claims.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Jakester

[la bam]

1 hour ago, Jakester said:

 Nope, I disagree. If you have bought decent gear and there’s nothing in that particular piece of gear’s manual saying you need to get it serviced or tested regularly then, absent some known fault to which you turned a blind eye, you would probably be fine. For example I’m pretty sure there is nothing in my Markbass amp manual saying it needs to be serviced or tested [edit: or, rather, needing regular servicing - it actually says “Refer all servicing to qualified service personnel. Servicing is required when the apparatus has been damaged in any way, such as power-supply cord or plug is damaged, liquid has been spilled or objects have fallen into the apparatus, the apparatus has been exposed to rain or moisture, does not operate normally, or has been dropped” ] likewise my Yamaha powered PA speakers. 

 

Indeed, it would probably be worse if you had it tested once and then didn’t do it again, since you might be deemed to be aware of the need for testing but didn’t bother. If there WAS something saying you need to have it serviced, but you don’t, and that item then causes loss or damage, you *might* be in trouble, but only if it was unreasonable for you not to have had it serviced, and that lack of servicing was a causative factor in any damage.

 

Basically you owe a duty of care to take reasonable precautions against loss and damage. If the operating manuals for your gear don’t say have it serviced, then you’re probably fine as it would be a reasonable step to comply with the manufacturer‘s recommendations.

 

Insurance almost certainly won’t say you need proof of testing - it will say comply with manufacturer’s recommendations if it says anything like that at all.

 

For info I’m a lawyer of 15 years’ post qualification experience and spent 10 years of my career dealing with claims for insurers and advising insurers on coverage, of which many were PI claims.

 

So.... if someone uses say a pair of powered speakers, they choose a random iec cable they have lying around. It turns out that cable was dodgy, (the investigation proves that that was the fault) and sets fire when no one is in the room and burns half the building down. 

Are you saying that youd be fine as the speakers manual didnt say you had to get the speakers serviced every year? 

 

One major point of PAT is to eliminate any dodgy equipment so it isnt taken on the road in the first place. Most people wont know if a cable or piece of equipment is potentially damaged or potentially damaging just by looking at it, just if it works or not, hence get an expert in to check before taking it out. Loads of people buy used equipment and use that without knowing its history. Not all equipment people use is bought new by them.

 

Likewise if you buy a second hand amp (or set of powered speakers) and take it straight to a gig and it sets on fire or electrocutes someone - because it had a fault (again that the investigation proves) - would you be ok then?

 

I completely get that pat is only relevant on that one date it is tested, and good practice checks are to be carried out after that date for safety, but a regular pat test WILL eliminate potentially damaging equipment being taken out every year - ask anyone who has kit tested every year.

 

The whole reason for the pat cert is that the equipment is subject to far more wear and tear from regular take down, set up, take down again, transportation, collisions, being used and stored in different environments and conditions, than a fixed appliance in an office for example.

 

 

 

[fleabag]

15 hours ago, TimR said:

 

 

Check your TV, it'll probably have a 5amp fuse. 

 

In practice it's not black and white. 

 

 

Certainly isn't if you have a colour TV

[TimR]

7 hours ago, Jakester said:

Basically you owe a duty of care to take reasonable precautions against loss and damage.

 

This very much depends on whether you are the average man in the street or whether you are an employee or an employer. 

 

If you are operating your band as a work activity then you are bound by the Electricity at Work Act 1989. And regular testing of electrical equipment is required within the act.

 

The HSE at work act is the only time that taking 'reasonable precautions' is not good enough under law, you must do everything that is reasonably practicable to prevent danger. 

 

The added requirement is if you have more than 5 employees you must keep written records. 

 

How this affects us will obviously depend greatly on our situation. If you're being paid to perform then it's a work activity. If we're playing in a venue then that venue has a legal duty to check your equipment has been regularly inspected and is safe. 

 

The fact no one asks is more of a failure of the venues than the band. 

[nilebodgers]

19 hours ago, gapiro said:

Because there is no such thing as a defined PAT test, there is no such thing as a course for it...

All the law says is that a competent (which is agian, undefined) person has inspected (undefined) the equipment at an appropriate (undefined) interval

This: https://www.cityandguilds.com/qualifications-and-apprenticeships/building-services-industry/electrical-installation/2377-electrical-equipment-maintenance-and-testing#tab=information