Happy Jack's Mike Lull Necks

[Andyjr1515]

This job is a little bit like the modern masterchef trend of 'deconstructed dishes'.  Basically, the sequence that I need to do things is quite different to a 'normal' build.

 

The challenge is that, ideally, we are trying to get a solution where @Happy Jack can unscrew the fretted neck, screw on the fretless and everything (intonation, saddle heights, etc) is pretty much unchanged.  And so the sequence of what I do when has to be pretty specific.

 

And the next job in that sequence is sort the neck pocket sides, even though the neck heel depth hasn't yet been calculated or cut.

 

It's fine work because it not only has to fit well, it has to be also pointing in the right direction.  

 

Slow, but a job for my little disk sander that will keep the sides absolutely square as I edge close to the fitting line:

 

I'm sure it wouldn't get me entry to any Master Builder society, but probably 'close enough for jazz' :

 

...and, according to the middle string, at least it's straight:

 

Next is going to be to fix the screw holes.  I use a brad-bit drill as a punch to give me accurate drilling holes and I fix two of the screws on the diagonal, check the straightness and then mark the centres for the other two screws  :

 

And all four in.  The screws' positions won't be affected when I finally reduce the neck heel thickness to the correct level further down the sequence as long as I keep everything square and flat.

 

 

And so the next job is going to be to determine the exact position that the nut-end of the fretboard needs to be at to intonate with the same bridge saddle positions as on the fretted neck and that will let me plane the fretboard down to its final taper and then glue it to the neck.  But before gluing that, I will have to get that small angle planed on the headstock.  And then (at last) I will be able to work out how deep the heel needs to be.

 

Told you it was an unusual sequence.. 

 

  

 

 

 

And, because that means putting the fretted neck back on to measure it, that's a job for tomorrow

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Happy Jack]

Extraordinary stuff, and hugely enjoyable to watch. 🧐

[Andyjr1515]

The nice thing about really long steel rules is that they are easier to find amongst the inevitable guitar-making detritus

 

With the nut position measured, I am able to position the fretless board nut edge in exactly the same place, slim the maple to fit and triple check that the centre line and outer string runs are going to be where they should be:

 

And so - goes Andyjr1515's logic - as long as the action can be made the same - the bass should intonate the same whichever neck is fitted.

 

Well...that's the theory 

 

One more job before I can fit the truss-rod and glue the board on - planing that moderate headstock angle.  All being well, I should be able to have the board gluing before the end of the day

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Andyjr1515

[Hellzero]

I don't know if it crossed your genius mind @Andyjr1515, but make sure that the top of the fretless fingerboard is exactly at the top of the frets on the ... fretted neck, or even just a very tiny slightly higher (for a slightly lower action to get that mwah) to achieve the perfect neck switching option. 😉

Edited December 7, 2021 by Hellzero
Word missing

[Twincam]

Excellent thread! 

[Andyjr1515]

2 hours ago, Hellzero said:

I don't know if it crossed your genius mind @Andyjr1515, but make sure that the top of the fretless fingerboard is exactly at the top of the frets on the ... fretted neck, or even just a very tiny slightly higher (for a slightly lower action to get that mwah) to achieve the perfect neck switching option. 😉

Yes - against all the odds, it is in the plan 

 

It is one of the reasons that fixing the depth (and possibly angle) of the heel will be one of the last things I do, which is a bit...er...how shall I put it... 'unconventional' 

 

[BigRedX]

I assume then that Happy Jack intends to use the same strings for both fretless and fretted playing?

 

Also that you are going to put some sort of over-all string retainer behind the nut to mimic the break angle produced by the Lull angled headstock so as to try and keep string compliance consistent between necks?

[Andyjr1515]

5 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

I assume then that Happy Jack intends to use the same strings for both fretless and fretted playing?

 

Also that you are going to put some sort of over-all string retainer behind the nut to mimic the break angle produced by the Lull angled headstock so as to try and keep string compliance consistent between necks?

Good point about the strings but that's my understanding (I'm sure @Happy Jack will let me know if not  )

 

And yes - the fretless will have a bar or Wal-type retainer.  Jack has also asked me to investigate if it is possible to change the Lull retainers for something similar, although the steep drop of a Fender-type headstock from the nut does make that a little more difficult.

[LukeFRC]

51 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

I assume then that Happy Jack intends to use the same strings for both fretless and fretted playing?

 

Also that you are going to put some sort of over-all string retainer behind the nut to mimic the break angle produced by the Lull angled headstock so as to try and keep string compliance consistent between necks?

other way to do it would be to have two sets of identical strings and a bridge that allows quick release (like my sadowsky one does, it can't be original though) 

[Daz39]

So, something like this for the necks…

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Daz39

[Happy Jack]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

I assume then that Happy Jack intends to use the same strings for both fretless and fretted playing?

 

Actually, no. My thinking is to have two sets of strings, each set attached at the tuners and held against the neck with a couple of velcro strips. It's far quicker and easier to slot the ball-ends into the bridge than to re-string from scratch each time.

 

This approach also means that I can have rounds on the fretless neck (maximise the mwah) but still retain flats for the fretted neck. This bass sounds awesome with flats. Or maybe I'll do it the other way around. Dunno. I foresee weeks of happy fettling ...

 

[Andyjr1515]

8 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Actually, no. My thinking is to have two sets of strings, each set attached at the tuners and held against the neck with a couple of velcro strips. It's far quicker and easier to slot the ball-ends into the bridge than to re-string from scratch each time.

 

This approach also means that I can have rounds on the fretless neck (maximise the mwah) but still retain flats for the fretted neck. This bass sounds awesome with flats. Or maybe I'll do it the other way around. Dunno. I foresee weeks of happy fettling ...

 

Sounds like a plan.  With a bass, it is likely that the intonation will be pretty consistent across the two types.  That said, if you have a thought of the flats you might use, you could send me a set and I can build that into the final heel-height tweaking.

[Andyjr1515]

I used a variety of tools for adding the angle and thicknessing the headstock, but the coolest is the spokeshave so that's the pic you're going to get

 

So I still have a slight 'Fender' scoop but shallower than normal due to the benefit of the modest headstock angle.  There will be an ebony fillet fitted the other side of the nut:

 

Next, the two-way trussrod fitted:

 

And, with a thin strip of masking tape stopping the glue filling the trussrod slot, the gluing commences:

[Hellzero]

3 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

Actually, no. My thinking is to have two sets of strings, each set attached at the tuners and held against the neck with a couple of velcro strips. It's far quicker and easier to slot the ball-ends into the bridge than to re-string from scratch each time.

 

This approach also means that I can have rounds on the fretless neck (maximise the mwah) but still retain flats for the fretted neck. This bass sounds awesome with flats. Or maybe I'll do it the other way around. Dunno. I foresee weeks of happy fettling ...

 

It won't work as flats and rounds have very different intonations. Sorry to break it apart @Happy Jack...

[Happy Jack]

51 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

It won't work as flats and rounds have very different intonations. Sorry to break it apart @Happy Jack...

Just means that I have to slide a bit further ...

 

🤨

[BreadBin]

53 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

It won't work as flats and rounds have very different intonations. Sorry to break it apart @Happy Jack...

Surely as long as the intonation is right for the fretted neck then it's going to be just fine? I have tried various intonation experiments on my fretless basses and it doesn't really matter where they end up as you intonate by ear. 

[Daz39]

1 hour ago, Hellzero said:

It won't work as flats and rounds have very different intonations. Sorry to break it apart @Happy Jack...

Just play fast and snappy like that Remco Hendrix chappy, it’ll sound close enough. 
The hair might be a problem…

[Hellzero]

10 hours ago, BreadBin said:

Surely as long as the intonation is right for the fretted neck then it's going to be just fine? I have tried various intonation experiments on my fretless basses and it doesn't really matter where they end up as you intonate by ear. 

The intonation with different strings (rounds vs flats) and maybe even gauge will be very different.

 

If you intonate by ear, then why bother having an exact fretless replica (including the nut position) of the fretted neck... There's something wrong here.

[Happy Jack]

7 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

There's something wrong here.

 

Nothing is ever wrong on the Internet, Tony. 😂

 

I seriously doubt that my fretless playing is anywhere near your standard, so having the intonation an 1/8th tone out simply isn't relevant to me. I never check the intonation on my GUS or Ovation fretless basses, and I don't think it's ever even occurred to me to check the intonation on any of my three double basses either. 

 

On the other hand, I'll accept second place to no man when it comes to OCD. If @Andyjr1515 can produce two necks which fit and feel utterly identical (apart from the fretlessness of course), then why on earth would I suggest that he make them different?

 

🙂

 

 

[Andyjr1515]

To be honest, everybody's right (after all, it's Christmas) 

 

- @Hellzero is right that, if they are totally different types of strings (especially major differences in tension), then the intonation is going to be different

- @Happy Jack is right that, for a fretless, intonation tends to be a little more 'flexible' .  Remembering that violins, cellos and double-basses don't have any individual intonation change capability to start with other than angle-ing the thin, high bridge and therefore everything is an approximation anyway) 

- @Andyjr1515  is also right - because it's his thread 

 

Actually, I hadn't really thought about string type change and therefore my explanation of getting that nut in exactly the same position turns out to be a bit of builder's blarney

 

But (because I can blarney with the best) actually, even if I'd thought about that, I would have still measured it the same way.  Why?  Because the general rule for both guitars and basses is that the top string usually intonates within 1mm of the scale length and the thicker strings are (usually, but not always, progressively) further back.  So I still need the nut in pretty much the same place.

 

The interesting thing might be...where should I put the 'at the fret position' side dots? 

 

 

 

I'll get my coat before the mods close the thread 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Andyjr1515

[BigRedX]

42 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

The interesting thing might be...where should I put the 'at the fret position' side dots? 

 

If that's a serious question the answer should be where Happy Jack wants them.

 

My preferred positions are on the "fret line" for unlined boards and either on or between the fret lines for lined boards.

[LukeFRC]

1 hour ago, Andyjr1515 said:

The interesting thing might be...where should I put the 'at the fret position' side dots? 

Ahh happy Jack is quite a player - he doesn’t need any side dots really 

[Daz39]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

If that's a serious question the answer should be where Happy Jack wants them.

 

My preferred positions are on the "fret line" for unlined boards and either on or between the fret lines for lined boards.

Both positions! That'll learn'im!

[Andyjr1515]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

If that's a serious question the answer should be where Happy Jack wants them.

 

My preferred positions are on the "fret line" for unlined boards and either on or between the fret lines for lined boards.

Yes - they will be on the fretline...  but, based on the previous discussion, where is that?  

 

(which is a tongue in cheek question that doesn't probably need an answer  )

[Hellzero]

17 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Yes - they will be on the fretline...  but, based on the previous discussion, where is that?  

 

(which is a tongue in cheek question that doesn't probably need an answer  )

It's where it should be.

 

I like to answer questions.