Is excesssive precision in tuners going to be the next big problem?

[skankdelvar]

Excessive tuners in Precision

[FinnDave]

I refuse to use any system known as true temperance. Nothing wrong with a little refreshment taken in moderation, no matter how frequently.

[Trueno]

21 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

I refuse to use any system known as true temperance. Nothing wrong with a little refreshment taken in moderation, no matter how frequently.

Slip some vodka into your Dandelion and Burdock and no-one will ever notice.

[FinnDave]

7 minutes ago, Trueno said:

Slip some vodka into your Dandelion and Burdock and no-one will ever notice.

Sod that, I'm on the gin and tonics!

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Excessive tuners in Precision

 

With you 100% on that. Hideous. Why Fender and Ernie Ball couldn't make a three on one side, two on the other headstock (as do Lakland) for their fives is beyond me.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Dan Dare

[FinnDave]

11 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

With you 100% on that. Hideous. Why Fender and Ernie Ball couldn't make a three on one side, two on the other headstock (as do Lakland) for their fives is beyond me.

Quite. Looks like four fingers on one side and a thumb sticking out on the other. Most unnatural. Four fingers, four strings. It's nature's way of telling us what's right.

[Downunderwonder]

6 hours ago, TheLowDown said:

If the human ear is only accurate to 4-6 cents then that's all that's needed.

That's totally inaccurate. Someone was posting about overly precise measuring earlier. They might be able to put some better maths on it....

 

If two people listen to the same note and one is hearing it 6 cents sharper than it actually sounds and the other hears it 6 c flat you better hope your tuner is 'dead on' or someone is going to 'hear' it out of tune.

[TheLowDown]

6 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

That's totally inaccurate. Someone was posting about overly precise measuring earlier. They might be able to put some better maths on it....

 

If two people listen to the same note and one is hearing it 6 cents sharper than it actually sounds and the other hears it 6 c flat you better hope your tuner is 'dead on' or someone is going to 'hear' it out of tune.

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just quoting what someone else said earlier in the thread. It was meant to be 4-5, not 4-6 fwiw.

Whatever the number happens to be, then that's the only accuracy that's needed.

Edited September 25, 2021 by TheLowDown

[Downunderwonder]

Just now, TheLowDown said:

I'm just quoting what someone else said earlier in the thread. It was meant to be 4-5, not 4-6 fwiw.

It doesn't change the concept.

[Stub Mandrel]

36 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

If two people listen to the same note and one is hearing it 6 cents sharper than it actually sounds and the other hears it 6 c flat you better hope your tuner is 'dead on' or someone is going to 'hear' it out of tune.

 

Misinterpretation, even people with excellent ears can only distinguish pitch differences of about 4 cents at best.

 

You do want to be tuned a bit better than that, as otherwise you can get noticeable beating when playing chords or against another instrument.

[JottoSW1]

If you could cope with loads of turns by comparison with the usual it would surely be feasible to produce tuners with a finer pitched thread.

Guess an electric tuner winder would be a necessity at restring time though !

[Petelee]

Interesting subject. I don't think that my ear is good enough to hear if a string is 2 or 3 cents out of tune. Will always err on side of slightly flat. Flat notes can be 'bent' into tune while playing but sharp fretted notes can't be adjusted downwards whilst playing.......and, in my opinion, slightly sharp notes just clash/sound worse than slightly flat notes.

 

(All of this from a bloke who tunes his bass a semitone up from 'standard' EADG anyway).

[zbd1960]

22 hours ago, SteveXFR said:

If you want 100% accuracy on every note and perfect sound then what you really need is a computer and not a string instrument. 

I'd agree - there's no realistic way to make a fretted instrument that is "in tune" in all keys

[zbd1960]

The way a violinist (or in my case, cellist) tunes strings is to bow the adjacent string at the same time and to adjust until the 'beats' are removed from the sounding fifth. This gives a lot of precision, since even a small difference is obvious. 

[Stub Mandrel]

8 hours ago, zbd1960 said:

The way a violinist (or in my case, cellist) tunes strings is to bow the adjacent string at the same time and to adjust until the 'beats' are removed from the sounding fifth. This gives a lot of precision, since even a small difference is obvious. 

 

That gives you a true temperament fifth, not an equal temperament one. Not that the difference is meaningful - about 1 cent.

[Downunderwonder]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

That gives you a true temperament fifth, not an equal temperament one. Not that the difference is meaningful - about 1 cent.

Does that mean if you take an A from the piano you are 2 cents off the piano on the G and 1 cent off on the E?

[Stub Mandrel]

10 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Does that mean if you take an A from the piano you are 2 cents off the piano on the G and 1 cent off on the E?

 

Sort of. I'd estimate 1 cent flat on the C, E and G. 2 cents on Bb but pretty much on tune for C#.

 

https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html

 

 

 

[MacDaddy]

 

Carefully tune your instrument before playing. That way you can play out of tune with a clear conscience 😜

[fretmeister]

Interesting thread.

 

Funnily enough I was moaning about my Boss TU-3 the other day. It reacts far too much and too quickly particularly on bass. The TU-2 was smoother and although the specs say the 2 is less accurate it was easier to get the bass in tune because the indicator wasn't jumping all over the place.

 

And considering I usually play with a load of brass and reed players "close enough" will definitely do!

 

(I really don't like it when the oboe players turn up!!)

 

[cheddatom]

One of the most common problems in my recording sessions is tuning. It seems to me, people don't know how to use their tuners properly. They keep hitting the note, not giving the tuner time to settle, and obviously getting frustrated, meaning they hit harder, making the note sharper

 

On bass, just play the harmonic at the 12th fret once, and wait for the tuner to settle to see if you need to adjust up or down (or at all)

[Rich]

I make sure the open strings are in tune and the intonation is correct, and I deal with any slight inaccuracies in fretted notes towards the top of the neck by Really Not Giving A Sh*t.  

Edited September 27, 2021 by Rich

[Nail Soup]

1 hour ago, cheddatom said:

One of the most common problems in my recording sessions is tuning. It seems to me, people don't know how to use their tuners properly. They keep hitting the note, not giving the tuner time to settle, and obviously getting frustrated, meaning they hit harder, making the note sharpe

On my six-string with whammy bar (I won't say tremolo) I tune it twice or maybe more. By the time I get to the last string the tremolo (OK I said it) spring has moved and the first strings are slightly out, so needs a second pass though. Or given all the stuff said above maybe it doesn't really!

Broken string puts it way out if you try to carry on with 5 strings.

[BigRedX]

5 minutes ago, Nail Soup said:

On my six-string with whammy bar (I won't say tremolo) I tune it twice or maybe more. By the time I get to the last string the tremolo (OK I said it) spring has moved and the first strings are slightly out, so needs a second pass though. Or given all the stuff said above maybe it doesn't really!

Broken string puts it way out if you try to carry on with 5 strings.

 

But you did.

 

It's a vibrato mechanism [/pedant]

[Dan Dare]

On 25/09/2021 at 19:15, FinnDave said:

Quite. Looks like four fingers on one side and a thumb sticking out on the other. Most unnatural. Four fingers, four strings. It's nature's way of telling us what's right.

I have a pal who picks with all four left hand fingers (he's a lefty). Uses the first to play the E, second on the A and so on. He gets around the instrument swiftly when he needs to. I've tried it (right handed, ofc) and find it utterly impossible. He started out playing classical guitar and taught himself the bass, which might explain his, um, interesting technique.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Dan Dare

[Nail Soup]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

I have a pal who picks with all four left hand fingers (he's a lefty). Uses the first to play the E, second on the A and so on. He gets around the instrument swiftly when he needs to. I've tried it (right handed, ofc) and find it utterly impossible. He started out playing classical guitar and taught himself the bass, which might explain his, um, interesting technique.

As Pick player who can do one finger if really needed, even thinking of that makes my head spin.