Unpaid to Play?

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, peteb said:

To be fair, you get paid what other people think that you are worth, but the starting point for the negotiation is what you ask for. 

Of course, if you don't ask for any payment you are telling people that your music is without value. 

So everyone playing at Glasto considers their music to be without value? Really?

[Dad3353]

3 minutes ago, peteb said:

...Of course, if you don't ask for any payment you are telling people that your music is without value. 

Why the 'Of course'..? I take a completely opposite view (but we may have different definitions of 'value', I suspect...). I believe that some things in Life are monetarily priceless, for instance. 

[peteb]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

However, I also play in an originals band where it is unlikely that we would get paid for gigs. That is because any gigs that we would do are likely to be supports for better known bands in a similar genre (who would be getting paid). We would be getting in front of their audience to hopefully sell a few albums, as well as increasing the recognition of the band. 

 

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

So everyone playing at Glasto considers their music to be without value? Really?

I am sure that you can appreciate the difference between playing covers in a pub to sell beer for a landlord and the opportunity to promote your act by playing a massive high-profile gig. As I have said above, this is something that my originals band would be happy to do, albeit on a massively smaller scale. Do try and keep up old boy... 

[peteb]

12 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Why the 'Of course'..? I take a completely opposite view (but we may have different definitions of 'value', I suspect...). I believe that some things in Life are monetarily priceless, for instance. 

So do I - but not playing classic rock covers in a pub! 

[tegs07]

42 minutes ago, peteb said:

But people want to go and see a band playing cover tunes in a pub and to drink beer. No one is forcing them (at least not for my bands)!

If they really  want to see you they will be willing to pay. If they aren’t willing to pay then it’s not because another band is playing for free. It doesn’t work like that.

[peteb]

4 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

If they really  want to see you they will be willing to pay. If they aren’t willing to pay then it’s not because another band is playing for free. It doesn’t work like that.

That is exactly how it works for pub gigs!

However, when the tribute or the original band that I'm in play gigs, then people have to pay to see us. How much we make or, in the case of the originals band, whether they are paying to see the main band rather than us is another matter. Completely different types of markets. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by peteb

[Al Krow]

6 minutes ago, peteb said:

I am sure that you can appreciate the difference between playing covers in a pub to sell beer for a landlord and the opportunity to promote your act by playing a massive high-profile gig. As I have said above, this is something that my originals band would be happy to do, albeit on a massively smaller scale. Do try and keep up old boy... 

Ah ok, so your comment was only aimed at pub gigs for covers bands, not at festivals or band "promo" events. In which case fair enough. 

[Dad3353]

7 minutes ago, peteb said:

So do I - but not playing classic rock covers in a pub! 

You don't have the same bandmates as I do, nor play the sames dates. 

[Dad3353]

9 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

If they really  want to see you they will be willing to pay if they're ask to.

Fixed. 

[tegs07]

12 minutes ago, peteb said:

That is exactly how it works for pub gigs!

However, when the tribute or the original band that I'm in play gigs, then people have to pay to see us. How much we make or, in the case of the originals band, whether they are paying to see the main band rather than us is another matter. Completely different types of markets. 

Back in the day I would pay to see the hamsters frequently even though plenty of other middle aged  blokes were playing blues/ rock for free in pubs. I would even drive miles after work. The Hamsters had an audience and made a living playing pubs and bike shows etc as they were better than the amateurs. The vast amount of people playing pubs won’t make a living playing their music. I don’t feel this is down to the competition playing for free.

Edited July 4, 2021 by tegs07

[peteb]

6 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

You don't have the same bandmates as I do, nor play the sames dates. 

Thankfully no. Please be aware that we are (or at least I am) talking about a rather specific market activity, i.e. playing covers at pub gigs. If you are doing something completely different, then it what I am saying does not necessarily apply. 

I will on occasion play for free; be it for a genuine charity, as a favour to a friend or to promote an original band. However, I will always expect to be paid if the primary reason for a gig is to assist a pub landlord to sell beer! 

Edited July 4, 2021 by peteb

[Ricky 4000]

3 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Back in the day I would pay to see the hamsters frequently even though plenty of other middle aged  blokes were playing blues/ rock for free in pubs. I would even drive miles after work. The Hamsters had an audience and made a living playing pubs and bike shows etc as they were better than the amateurs.

I saw them years ago, in the bar at Newport Centre. Super-tight band. 👍

[peteb]

25 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Back in the day I would pay to see the hamsters frequently even though plenty of other middle aged  blokes were playing blues/ rock for free in pubs. I would even drive miles after work. The Hamsters had an audience and made a living playing pubs and bike shows etc as they were better than the amateurs.

I saw the Hamsters a few times. They were professional musicians who toured around the country playing dedicated music venues, rather than local pubs putting live music on a weekend. They had a policy of insisting that punters had to pay to see them and refused to play places that didn't charge for admission. 

I agree with them that people should ideally at least pay a nominal fee to see live music, but unfortunately that is not necessarily how the general local pub gig market works. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by peteb

[Dad3353]

14 minutes ago, peteb said:

Thankfully no. Please be aware that we are (or at least I am) talking about a rather specific market activity, i.e. playing covers at pub gigs. If you are doing something completely different, then it what I am saying does not necessarily apply. 

I will on occasion play for free; be it for a genuine charity, as a favour to a friend or to promote an original band. However, I will always expect to pay if the primary reason for a gig is to assist a pub landlord to sell beer! 

Please be informed, then, that we (The Daub'z...) also play pop/rock covers in pubs, local festivals or fêtes, charity events or self-promoted concerts. Much less nowadays, as I'm not getting any younger, but still keen to do the few gigs left to me, as long as health permits. I've been playing drums for over half a century; for some years as a 'pro' in variety bands, either fixed or depping, and usually got paid (little...) for those dates. I also played most week-ends weddings and other functions as a duo, whilst building a career in IT and raising the family. All this while I've always been involved in various activities, as a volunteer for festivals, playing in 'ad hoc' groups, jamming with buddies or playing in our 'family' group, The Daub'z. I don't need the money (I never have counted on playing to live; I live to play...), and claim the freedom to be beholden to no-one for what I play, nor to what 'standard'. This has served me, and the folk I play with, well as a philosophy for all these years, and I'm pleased with the pool of family, friends and acquaintances I've accumulated over all this time. The financials have never been a consideration, in this as in other aspects of my Life. I'm not alone in this, and maintain that there can be more than monetary reward, for many activities, either professional, personal or familial. One other 'upside' is not needing the services of an accountant nor financial advisor. Having little is, to me, an advantage, as I want little. Complaisance..? Probably. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Dad3353

[Happy Jack]

22 minutes ago, peteb said:

They had a policy of insisting that punters had to pay to see them and refused to play places that didn't charge for admission. 

 

Wow man, like, no breadheads, man. 🙄

[Doddy]

52 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

So everyone playing at Glasto considers their music to be without value? Really?

The Glastonbury thing is interesting. They may pay out little to nothing for a lot of acts, but I would hazard a guess that most (if not all) of the sidemen musicians are still getting paid their regular fees.

I often play for free and purely for the enjoyment of playing, but there is never an audience there. If I'm on stage, I'm getting paid something.

[Barking Spiders]

2 hours ago, gjones said:

You get paid what you think you're worth.

If you don't ask for any payment, you're probably pretty awful.

Or maybe people don't ask for payment because they've got well paid regular jobs?

Edited July 4, 2021 by Barking Spiders

[Woodinblack]

14 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Wow - hadn't appreciated this!! Is that just some of the bands at Glasto or all of them?

A lot of them probably do, certainly the ones who are on their way up and need the publicity as they can guarantee a lot of that. Headliners less so, though some do for charity. They said they paid Paul McC 200k, which is probably cheap. 

14 hours ago, SteveXFR said:

All of them. Even Kanye and according to him, he's the world's greatest rock star

They get paid considerably less than other uk festivals, maybe only 1/10th of some of them, but they do get paid up to 500k depending on who they are. So I doubt kanye would have got much less than 500k - I mean what would Glastonbury have meant to him?

[tegs07]

10 hours ago, Daz39 said:

Nobody needs music? Why does it exist then? That’s along the lines of letting all creatives suffer as most seem to be doing in these constrained times: after all what have they done for us? (Goes the refrain)

Nobody needs average music. I wouldn’t pay an amateur plaster to get better honing their craft on my walls. A decent plasterer will always have work but needs some way of getting the skills required.

Free pub gigs and community festivals IMO are a good thing and a rite of passage for most musicians. My teenage years were spent watching various mates bands play pubs. If people had to pay to get in then they would never have got the gigs to start with. Most of them were crap, but it was always fun.

At least one of the guys I went to see got good enough to make a living from playing their own music. Everyone has to start somewhere. 

Edit: As I have said this exists in every industry. In my own career I have seen endless paper CCNA and MCSE guys shocked that no company will let them loose on their network. They start on a help desk and work their way up. The hours spent and cash spent on the exams is the start not the end of the journey.

Edited July 5, 2021 by tegs07

[SteveXFR]

7 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

They get paid considerably less than other uk festivals, maybe only 1/10th of some of them, but they do get paid up to 500k depending on who they are. So I doubt kanye would have got much less than 500k - I mean what would Glastonbury have meant to him?

I guess I was mistaken. Maybe it changed, I'm sure they never used to get paid. 

Even half a million probably doesn't cover costs for some of them. I guess it probably costs an enormous amount for a band like Foo Fighters to charter a jet, fly over here with all their crew and equipment and play a show. They did it twice as well to play a tiny warm up show down at my local a few months earlier.

[tegs07]

11 hours ago, peteb said:

I saw the Hamsters a few times. They were professional musicians who toured around the country playing dedicated music venues, rather than local pubs putting live music on a weekend. They had a policy of insisting that punters had to pay to see them and refused to play places that didn't charge for admission. 

Insert: So your saying that they were a band that got good enough to attract a following and charge for entry.
 

 

I agree with them that people should ideally at least pay a nominal fee to see live music, but unfortunately that is not necessarily how the general local pub gig market works. 

Insert: See above

Personally I believe making punters pay to watch unknown bands in pubs will be a barrier to entry for most artists starting their career in music, particularly artists that don’t do covers. 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by tegs07

[Woodinblack]

47 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

I guess I was mistaken. Maybe it changed, I'm sure they never used to get paid. 

Yes, right from the beginning, although I think in 74, he stiffed them out of the money and has been trying the same since. I mean he is a farmer, so its in the blood, plus he has to pay to kill all those badgers.

47 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

Even half a million probably doesn't cover costs for some of them. I guess it probably costs an enormous amount for a band like Foo Fighters to charter a jet, fly over here with all their crew and equipment and play a show. They did it twice as well to play a tiny warm up show down at my local a few months earlier.

Hardly a waste - they got to play the Cheese and Grain too!

[Leonard Smalls]

11 hours ago, tegs07 said:

the hamsters

I booked them to play at a local festival a number of years ago - I asked if they'd do 1/2 their Hendrix show and 1/2 the ZZ Top one... They were excellent, and really nice guys into the bargain. We got 200 people in (almost a sell-out!) and the hall was surprisingly clean afterwards.

By contrast, we had the Oyster Band the next night who were paid considerably more; it did sell out but the bar take was 1/3 of the night before, the band were aloof and the audience moany and miserable. Not only that, but the floor was disgusting, covered in beer and who knows what. I had to polish it at 2am!

I knew I wasn't a fan of folky rock!

[tegs07]

19 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

By contrast, we had the Oyster Band the next night who were paid considerably more; it did sell out but the bar take was 1/3 of the night before, the band were aloof and the audience moany and miserable. Not only that, but the floor was disgusting, covered in beer and who knows what. I had to polish it at 2am!

The Oyster Band were another of the pub circuit bands I saw progress to art centres, small events etc alongside The Men they couldn’t hang (who I always preferred) and the ones that got to the next level (pun intended) The Levellers. Glad the Hamsters were decent blokes- they always made the effort. Never saw them do a bad gig even when playing to less than 50 people in a pub beer garden BBQ thing in the rain.

Edited July 5, 2021 by tegs07

[Nibody]

Here's the deal.

If you are a covers type function or semi pro band, you wouldnt take it (or need to).

If you are a good originals band, the same. Because people would want to hear you so you put on gigs yourself and guarantee a following. Also you are going to have a targeted demographic (Why would a Swedish Death Metal band want or need to play a winebar full of middle aged Hootie and the Blowfish fans for example..??)

If you are just starting out, have zero following (and quite possibly are just not that great) then it would be worth it for the experience.

Not rocket science really.