Unpaid to Play?

[Ed_S]

My possibly over-simplistic view, for what it's worth

Somebody says that listening to music makes them feel something really positive and only music does that for them. They're willing to lay down their free time and disposable cash to experience the thing which makes them feel good. The product they expect to receive for the money they pay is a feeling. That seems to be generally accepted and perfectly relatable.

Somebody else says that playing music to an audience makes them feel something really positive and only music does that for them. They're willing to lay down their free time and disposable cash to experience the thing which makes them feel good. The payment they expect to receive for the product they provide is a feeling. That seems to be somehow tantamount to robbery and completely reprehensible.

The gig needs a clean, safe venue with tables and chairs and beer and food and toilets and staff and a stage etc. so the audience pay their disposable cash to float that. The musicians need lessons and books and instruments and amps and rehearsals and transport etc. so they pay their disposable cash to float that. The door/bar/catering/cleaning staff probably don't get many uniquely positive feelings from playing their respective parts, so they expect their recompense in cash and they get that.

As long as everybody involved is happy enough with the arrangement, then I don't see what the problem is.

If, as a professional musician, you can offer that venue owner something special that guarantees a bigger take on the door/bar to the point where they can afford to pay you as contract staff and still make more profit than the free alternative, then offer it and I'm confident they'll take you up on it. After all, as a non-professional musician playing original material, I have to accept that I can't get a gig in a decent venue with 'organic' footfall on a Friday/Saturday night - that's firmly covers and tributes territory for a reason.

[Newfoundfreedom]

9 minutes ago, Ed_S said:

My possibly over-simplistic view, for what it's worth

Somebody says that listening to music makes them feel something really positive and only music does that for them. They're willing to lay down their free time and disposable cash to experience the thing which makes them feel good. The product they expect to receive for the money they pay is a feeling. That seems to be generally accepted and perfectly relatable.

Somebody else says that playing music to an audience makes them feel something really positive and only music does that for them. They're willing to lay down their free time and disposable cash to experience the thing which makes them feel good. The payment they expect to receive for the product they provide is a feeling. That seems to be somehow tantamount to robbery and completely reprehensible.

The gig needs a clean, safe venue with tables and chairs and beer and food and toilets and staff and a stage etc. so the audience pay their disposable cash to float that. The musicians need lessons and books and instruments and amps and rehearsals and transport etc. so they pay their disposable cash to float that. The door/bar/catering/cleaning staff probably don't get many uniquely positive feelings from playing their respective parts, so they expect their recompense in cash and they get that.

As long as everybody involved is happy enough with the arrangement, then I don't see what the problem is.

If, as a professional musician, you can offer that venue owner something special that guarantees a bigger take on the door/bar to the point where they can afford to pay you as contract staff and still make more profit than the free alternative, then offer it and I'm confident they'll take you up on it. After all, as a non-professional musician playing original material, I have to accept that I can't get a gig in a decent venue with 'organic' footfall on a Friday/Saturday night - that's firmly covers and tributes territory for a reason.

The definitive reply.

This thread can now be closed. 😁👍

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

...Decent bands get paid...

Some decent bands (we're one; there are others...) don't want to be paid. 

[uk_lefty]

I generally wouldn't do an unpaid gig with my established band. But if someone contacts us about a paid gig and the drummer doesn't k ow them he gets really awkward... "But they don't even know if they need lights FFS!!!" instead of taking it as a case of bring the lights and leave the lights in the van, they take five mins to set up. However if one of the drummer's mates asks us to do an unpaid gig in the bum end of nowhere he says "Yes!!" before even checking if anyone else is available. Gig income had been declining rapidly before covid. 

 

[Steve Browning]

It's ultimately a personal decision that no-one else is entitled to criticise. 

A bar is a commercial enterprise and so should expect to pay for anything it uses in order to generate a profit. If it can blag a freebie then it will. In these odd times I would be prepared to help out a venue that's supported me over the years (a bit of mutual back-scratching). Experience tells me that exposure is an empty 'promise' and is a scam.

The live music scene is a free market. Cheap bands drive down the price for other bands, that's a fact as a matter of simple economics but it won't ever stop. Everyone has to accept it in the same way uninsured drivers drive up the cost of insurance. We may not approve but we won't stop it.

[Barking Spiders]

I've been in bands doing more unpaid than paid gigs and to my knowledge we were never taking the food out of the mouths of professionals. Usually it was a case of us the unpaid band vs some Judy warbling along to pre-recorded backing tracks. We didn't always win.

[Happy Jack]

With impeccable timing, the real world intrudes.

A guy I know just called me and asked me to play bass on Friday for his new band at their next rehearsal, to be held in a well-known music pub. They're playing a very eclectic mix of 60s and 70s crowd-pleasers, and I suspect that they'll play them in drunken singalong style (though that may be doing them an injustice).

The pub in question is one where @Silvia Bluejay and I have tried several times to get paid gigs, so this sounds like not only a right laff but also a good chance to get to chat to the landlady one-on-one.

OK, I say, happy to do that, but where are we actually rehearsing? 

He says the name of the pub again.

No, sez oi, where in the pub? I mean, it will be open on a Friday night, won't it?

Yup, sez he, on the stage.

Huh? In front of punters?

Yup, sez he.

At this point, I fall about laughing. Granted this guy was actually at school with the landlady (many years ago) but even so ...

So now my conversation with the landlady will quite possibly be along the lines of, well you can have this ... erm ... music free, gratis, and for nothing, but if you'd like something rather better then I invite you to have a look at my two (paid) bands. 😂

[StickyDBRmf]

23 hours ago, Chris2112 said:

The market has been undercut by musicians accepting unpaid gigs. There is now an expectation in the pub and events world that someone will play for free, it's just a case of asking around. Add to that the fact that the organiser would usually put cost before quality and you end up where we are now. 

Let's face it, no one wants to be playing top 40 or pub rock for nothing. It should be paid. However, organisers tend to see it as hobby and act like they're the ones doing you a favour by offering you a venue. 

The problem is further compounded by the fact that many 'professional' bands are utter crap and you have organisers wondering what they're paying for. 

I haven't read the last 6 pgs. just started where I left off. I will play my music for exposure. I ain't playing other people's music I never have never will. Just to clarify sorry for any misunderstanding. I mean, I went to school for music and have been cooking professionaly ever since because MY MUSIC HAS NO COMERCIAL POTENTIAL.

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

The live music scene is a free market. Cheap bands drive down the price for other bands, that's a fact as a matter of simple economics but it won't ever stop. Everyone has to accept it in the same way uninsured drivers drive up the cost of insurance. We may not approve but we won't stop it.

The important difference is that there is nothing immoral or illegal in bands being prepared to play for little or nothing; that's their choice and one they are at liberty to make.

Very different kettle of fish to the law-breakers driving without insurance.

[tegs07]

 

3 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

... The live music scene is a free market. Cheap bands drive down the price for other bands, that's a fact as a matter of simple economics but it won't ever stop. Everyone has to accept it in the same way uninsured drivers drive up the cost of insurance. We may not approve but we won't stop it.

I don’t believe this for a moment. I am happy to pay for decent live music from artists that connect with an audience and have something special. These artists find an audience and they do so from hard graft and something I don’t have or really understand.

They will always outshine the talented amateur that plays for free. The sad reality is they are rare. Really rare.

Making a living from original material is really hard and few have the qualities to do so no matter how gifted they may be. Music as with photography or literature is really hard to make money from. I know countless gifted painters and photographers. I don’t know any that make a living from their original art though.I do know several that have managed to find ways of making a living by being creative with the talent they have though. Function bands, cover bands, wedding photographers, sign writers etc. A compromise maybe? Others get a career doing other work and play for fun (often for free) whenever they can.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Dad3353

[neepheid]

I think that the covers band market and the originals band markets are distinct and separate.

I am not the right person to be in either kind of band because I do not possess the brass neck required to make things happen. I think we make good music. You may disagree with that and that's fine. See? I've lost you already.

[Al Krow]

.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Al Krow
Quotation mixup kindly sorted by dad! :)

[peteb]

34 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

I don’t believe this for a moment.

Why don't you believe that the live music is a free market?? It is a very good example of how a market operates and how it can be distorted. 

17 minutes ago, neepheid said:

I think that the covers band market and the originals band markets are distinct and separate.

 

Very true. I wouldn't play a covers band gig without getting paid, unless there was a very good reason. 

However, I also play in an originals band where it is unlikely that we would get paid for gigs. That is because any gigs that we would do are likely to be supports for better known bands in a similar genre (who would be getting paid). We would be getting in front of their audience to hopefully sell a few albums, as well as increasing the recognition of the band. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by peteb

[gjones]

You get paid what you think you're worth.

If you don't ask for any payment, you're probably pretty awful.

[tegs07]

5 minutes ago, peteb said:

Why don't you believe that the live music is a free market?? It is a very good example of how a market operates and how it can be distorted.

Nobody needs music. They chose it. Artists that are good enough to make a living from music will do so. People doing it for free won’t take anything from them as they are simply good enough to get paid for what they do.

I don’t think it can be compared to other market activities unless you compare qualified plumbers, electricians or decorators with DIY folk.

[peteb]

1 minute ago, tegs07 said:

Nobody needs music. They chose it. Artists that are good enough to make a living from music will do so. People doing it for free won’t take anything from them as they are simply good enough to get paid for what they do.

I don’t think it can be compared to other market activities unless you compare qualified plumbers, electricians or decorators with DIY folk.

I'm sorry mate, but you have no idea of what a market is. 

There can be a market for anything where there is a demand and a supplier can meet that demand, i.e. in this case a pub with a demand for bands to play and therefore encourage punters to go to that pub and drink beer. It doesn't matter if it is a necessity or if the musicians playing those gigs have other jobs - it is still an economic activity and there is a market for it. 

No one needs a luxury car and of course, people doing DIY their own properties has an effect on the market for tradesmen to carry out work on people's homes. 

[tegs07]

3 minutes ago, peteb said:

I'm sorry mate, but you have no idea of what a market is. 

There can be a market for anything where there is a demand and a supplier can meet that demand, i.e. in this case a pub with a demand for bands to play and therefore encourage punters to go to that pub and drink beer. It doesn't matter if it is a necessity or if the musicians playing those gigs have other jobs - it is still an economic activity and there is a market for it. 

No one needs a luxury car and of course, people doing DIY their own properties has an effect on the market for tradesmen to carry out work on people's homes. 

To have a market you need a willing consumer. You can’t force people to pay for something they don’t need or want. I don’t need an average pub band and plenty of times I don’t want one either.

Edited July 4, 2021 by tegs07

[Mickeyboro]

I was a professional journalist. 
The only unpaid work I did was an interview with George Best. He was paid £500...

Now I’m retired I am glad I bent my rule...

Sorry, not really relevant to any of the above😂

[peteb]

1 minute ago, tegs07 said:

To have a market you need a willing consumer. You can’t force people to pay for something they don’t need or want.

But people want to go and see a band playing cover tunes in a pub and to drink beer. No one is forcing them (at least not for my bands)!

[Daz39]

1 minute ago, tegs07 said:

To have a market you need a willing consumer. You can’t force people to pay for something they don’t need or want.

Nobody needs music? Why does it exist then? That’s along the lines of letting all creatives suffer as most seem to be doing in these constrained times: after all what have they done for us? (Goes the refrain)

[peteb]

Just now, Mickeyboro said:

I was a professional journalist. 
The only unpaid work I did was an interview with George Best. He was paid £500...

Now I’m retired I am glad I bent my rule...

Sorry, not really relevant to any of the above😂

But still pretty cool... 

[Dad3353]

51 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@tegs07 - Lol - not sure how those words in your last post ended up being quoted as being from me?!

I think you'll find they were from @Steve Browning's earlier post. Grateful if you ( or @Dad3353) could edit your post to correct. 

Fixed. 

[Dad3353]

32 minutes ago, gjones said:

You get paid what you think you're worth.

If you don't ask for any payment, you're probably pretty awful.

[Steve Browning]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

The important difference is that there is nothing immoral or illegal in bands being prepared to play for little or nothing; that's their choice and one they are at liberty to make.

Very different kettle of fish to the law-breakers driving without insurance.

My point wasn't about legality. I meant that both affect the cost and we can't influence either, so no point worrying about it.

[peteb]

47 minutes ago, gjones said:

You get paid what you think you're worth.

If you don't ask for any payment, you're probably pretty awful.

To be fair, you get paid what other people think that you are worth, but the starting point for the negotiation is what you ask for. 

Of course, if you don't ask for any payment you are telling people that what you do is without value. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by peteb