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Fender headstock decals on replicas


Guest MoJo

Thoughts on headstock decals for replicas  

96 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Fender decals be fitted to replicas

    • As long as it's not for financial gain, why not?
      27
    • What's the point, it's not a Fender?
      33
    • Could care less either way
      25
    • No. It's wrong on so many levels
      11


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Guest MoJo

I know that this is an area that divides opinion quite strongly but this poll was initiated by a Porsche Speedster replica that recently passed through our workshop. Based on modern Beetle running gear, the kit was top quality and only an Porsche aficionado would be able to tell that it wasn't a genuine restoration project without inspecting it carefully. The point is, that it was badged as a Porsche not a jokey 'Porch' or such like. Folks that put Fender decals on their Squiers or other replica are often looked down upon or slammed by the community but we happily accept Fender decals on Limelight basses. What does everyone think?

Edited by MoJo
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I've always thought the Limelight thing was pretty dodgy.

I understand they're doing it for 'complete authenticity' rather than with the intention of deceiving but at the end of the day they're still badging the instrument as something it's not.

And a few buyers and sellers down the line who knows what it's being sold as?

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As long as nobody is trying to pull the wool on others, what they do with their own time money and kit is their business. My bitsa is based on Fender shaped parts and was going to have part of my band name in Fender script on the headstock. I don't see that as a crime, it wouldn't say Fender but it might look like it from afar. Some would say "NO! Design your own logo" but hey, I'm playing covers so originality isn't my priority. 

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20 minutes ago, uk_lefty said:

As long as nobody is trying to pull the wool on others, what they do with their own time money and kit is their business. My bitsa is based on Fender shaped parts and was going to have part of my band name in Fender script on the headstock. I don't see that as a crime, it wouldn't say Fender but it might look like it from afar. Some would say "NO! Design your own logo" but hey, I'm playing covers so originality isn't my priority. 

Pretty sure Fender don't have any kind of copyright over that style of writing.

There are complete 'Fender' fonts available online that people have extrapolated from the 5 different letters of the Fender logo.

I reckon you could use one in a decal saying anything you like (apart from 'Fender' of course) without breaching anyone's copyright or being accused of deliberately misleading people. 

 

Edited by Cato
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Guest MoJo
12 minutes ago, uk_lefty said:

As long as nobody is trying to pull the wool on others, what they do with their own time money and kit is their business. My bitsa is based on Fender shaped parts and was going to have part of my band name in Fender script on the headstock. I don't see that as a crime, it wouldn't say Fender but it might look like it from afar. Some would say "NO! Design your own logo" but hey, I'm playing covers so originality isn't my priority. 

I have considered something similar but more ‘jokey’ to this in the past, Mojo’s Jizzmaster in Fender script or similar, which would be funny for about 20 seconds 

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Don't like to see it, don't understand why anyone does it. A copy's a copy's a copy, whether it's a £90 Harley Benton or a £900 Limelight & I don't think there's any shame in that - it seems eminently more tragic to fake an instument up as something it's not. Fwiw I've had dozens of Precisions, Jazzes, Strats & Teles - and not one has been a 'real' Fender or worn a shonky sticker.

11 minutes ago, Cato said:

Pretty sure Fender don't have any kind of copyright right over that style of writing.

Maybe not actual copyright or trade dress registration, but they have taken successful action against manufacturers & brands using similar styles - Vester & Fenix were made to change the styles of their logos back in the 80s/90s. Fenix was particularly ironic as the brand owner/manufacturer had previously had the contract to make Squiers - until they started selling them under their own brand without permission!

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I've got one where the small print under the fake "Fender" logo, where you'd expect to see the serial number etc., is an admission that it's assembled from WD Music parts.
One reason is that the "Fender" part is sometimes noticed when having the "have you thought of getting a proper bass" discussion at jazz jams ("well, at least it's Fender/fretless/both"). No-one's ever commented on the small print and I suspect they've not noticed.
Now I have a "proper bass" this doesn't really matter any more. The fake logo should come off easily with some wire wool should I so wish.

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5 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

It's a funny one, isnt it?

I think the line is between 'replica' and 'counterfeit'. If I were into replica film props (which I'm not) I would want my replica to be as accurate to the original item as possible. However if I was sold an item as the actual one seen on-screen in a certain shot, only to discover it was in fact a replica I'd feel ripped off, not least because I would have paid more for the actual item.

I've seen some replica items used for reenactment where the original military stamps and makers marks are replicated, but using fake dates/serial numbers (e.g. manufactured on 31st February).

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57 minutes ago, Supernaut said:

Some people can't get over the 'embarrassment' of being seen playing a Squier. 

I'm fine with it. 

I had a squier jazz which was a beaut but I was told by a crap soundman that the sound was terrible because I was using a jazz. the snobbery will always be there

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Caveat emptor applies concerning the buying of second-hand basses, as with second-hand anything, and, to me (a drummer...) a fine bass is a fine bass, whatever it says on the headstock. I'd want to pay for its intrinsic qualities, and not for a label (for me, that's 'Hofner'; I'd buy a fake if it played and sounded good, but wouldn't pay more for original provenance...). Marketing a 'knock-off' industrially is a different issue, whereby there is a cold effort made to actually cheat the customer. This applies to all counterfeit, but I've never understood the appeal of Gucci handbags or Rolex watches, and wouldn't want either, at any price, real or fake. When folk pay well below the 'real' price, they know it's a fake, and, as far as I'm concerned, wouldn't have bought a 'real' one anyway, so there's no loss of sales to the 'real' producer. If folk want to act 'bling' in that way, I don't really care; it's just sad. Folk paying top dollar for what turns out to be a fake are not being careful enough in their research or checks. How many 'real' paintings have turned out to be fakes, even in art galleries..? To me, this simply shows up the ridiculous 'investment' prices policy, and I seldom shed a tear. A fake Fender..? To me, a bass is a bass, and its value is how it plays and sounds, but it's not 'right' to palm one off for what it's not. If it fools some folk, it's hard cheese, I'd say.

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15 minutes ago, christhammer666 said:

I had a squier jazz which was a beaut but I was told by a crap soundman that the sound was terrible because I was using a jazz. the snobbery will always be there

I'm here, I've brought an Epiphone, what you going to do, snobby sound engineer, cancel the gig?  Thought not, now get back behind that desk and do your f'n job.

I really don't see the point in putting a Fender decal on a Squier or other non-Fender instrument (which this disease seems to chiefly infect, with a side order of Gibson TRCs on Epiphone Thunderbirds).  It is what it is - if you play well, most of the talking is going to be about how good your playing was, not what brand of bass you were playing.  So I focus on that, instead of what a minority of people deem important.

I think what this inferiority complex stems from is possibly justified snobbery in the 50s/60s when the Fender Precision was seen as the gold standard in the recording/session musician sphere and all other basses were deemed to be inferior (a lot of them probably were - everyone was playing catchup and getting it wrong) because producers either couldn't be bothered learning how to record/EQ other basses, or couldn't afford to take the time to do so.  Those days are long gone now but some people still cling to the ridiculous and outdated idea that if you're not playing a Fender (and more specifically, a Fender Precision) then you're somehow a rank amateur/not serious/mentally deficient/a dangerous deviant (delete as applicable).

Codswallop.  Instrument manufacture has improved immeasurably in the last few decades at the cheapest price point.  The diminishing returns of spending more on an instrument have never been so diminished.  Play your Epiphones, Squiers, Harley Bentons and whatever else with pride, they're fine working instruments and if you play well, it really doesn't matter what's on the headstock.

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I’m lucky to have a stunning Bravewood, it puts some Fender Custom Shop basses to shame - so the fact it wears a Fender logo, to me, is not a problem. It’s a respectful homage, and not a con. And other logos or headstock shapes  just look shi*te on a vintage replica 😂

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The legal position is very clear.

 

You can put any logo on your own instrument.

You cannot sell that instrument, even with a disclaimer, as that is selling a counterfeit. No ifs or buts. Disclaimers do not change the status of the item. The item itself, at the point of sale or beyond is liable to confiscation and destruction. The intent of the person selling is irrelevant to confiscation / destruction (hence disclaimers not having any effect at all as to the status of the item) as it is the item itself that is counterfeit. The intent of the person only becomes an issue if they knew they were selling counterfeit goods and that can open the person up to liability for a simple refund or worse if it looks like a business.

 

Fender own their own IP and get to decide who can use it through licensing arrangements. Fender do not sell logos individually to the public. Every logo you see that is not on a genuine Fender product, or is still on the waterslide sheet is a fake logo.

 

Obviously Fender go after the big producers of counterfeit instruments rather than little guys like Limelight but there is no doubt at all that Limelight are breaking the law if they don't have a licensing agreement with Fender to use their logo, and anyone who sells a Limelight onwards is doing the same.

 

Several other, larger forums have an outright ban on all counterfeit instruments similar to the Ricky ban here. I know of one forum where they got proper legal advice on the point and then made that change as the owners of the forum were concerned about being dragged into any litigation by an IP holder (like here for Rickys).

 

 

So the OP's poll is missing a bit really - in all circumstances it turns what might well be a fantastic instrument into a counterfeit one and at risk (no matter how small) of being seized and destroyed.

 

 

 

 

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I have contradictory views on this subject. The basses are obviously fakes, however I have enquired at purchasing a copy of a 66 jazz I own that's too valuable for me to gig anymore. I've requested (but not received) prices for a builder to create a carbon copy of an instrument I own. In principle it's still a fake, but I can still justify it to myself.

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