Bands, those funny little plans

[Dankology]

I've been meaning to post my own tale of woe for some time now - so I was about to post to Jakester's thread but ended up venting at too much length... Didn't want to thread-jack so please forgive the possibly unnecessary new topic.

I joined an originals band about three or four years ago which until that point had been a keys/gtr/vocal doing a small number of originals and classy covers that were facilitated by the singer's excellent voice.

Things were going really well - I knew a few low level promoters and local radio folks so we managed to get some ok gigs and coverage and we had lots of new songs coming through, turning us into a 99% originals band. A couple of us worked tirelessly to get radio play, social media traction and gigs despite an ever changing mission statement from the singer: "I'm sick of doing sh!tty support gigs" one week but then "I want to do a load of pub gigs locally" the next... a period of "I just want to go out and do some solo slots at open mics"... followed by "I don't want to do gigs at all" the next month. We booked some studio time and put down five songs, although it took two years to actually get three of them "released" on Spotify etc - which should have been a warning sign in itself, in retrospect.

In the year prior to lockdown the singer's output dropped considerably and so we went from her bringing in chords, lyrics and melodies for each song to band members working up sketches which she would put words and melodies on top of. We got some great songs out of this process and did some more recording. We're lucky to have access to a nice sounding room and I've got loads of recording gear so we took over the drummer's house for a weekend and got another clutch of recordings in the bag.

I ended up doing endless mixes of two of these tracks - interminable back and forth finessing things until we eventually put one of them out. Within days, the singer sent a message out to say that she didn't really like this song and that she "couldn't really get behind it" - you can imagine how this sat with me after the hours of work I'd put in, similarly the guitarist, who'd put a video together for it and who had worked with me submitting it to all the usual radio shows, blogs and other places your average, bottom-of-the-ladder indie band has to plumb. Of note, this song was the first of our releases to have a joint writing credit.

We, at length, managed to get over this blip and started working up songs in rehearsal. After spending a few sessions on a new one and having it ready to record, we were again told "I can't really get behind this one" - again, a song that had begun as band composition. This caused major ructions and as we were already into lockdown at this point most communication was taking place via texts and group chats. 

I had my suspicions about this being related to the singer perceiving a loss of her status as sole songwriter and indeed she sent us some messages about being uncomfortable with our creative process and with collaboration being difficult for her as she "received her songs from the ether" - seemingly unaware of the masses of work we all put into crafting her contributions into finished songs. But at the same time she was at pains to point out that we were not just a backing band - without being able to clarify how this curious creative relationship could go forward.

The drummer managed to get us all to agree to a meeting to get things straightened out. Within hours, the singer sent a message "dissolving this iteration of the band" and explaining that she wanted to keep the band name for herself and that she expected to be able to use all the songs and material recorded thus far on her Spotify and social media accounts.

I balked at this latter point and made it clear that any songs or recordings I'd contributed to were off-limits. I felt quite bad about this at the time but over the following 6 months it has proven to be a shrewd move. The three of us immediately decided to continue as a new band and in looking at the contributions that we'd had rejected and even some of the finished songs, realized that we had a decent clutch of music that we'd actually written without the singer's input and have been going about re-purposing them with new lyrics and melodies.

The eye-opener has been how much more productive and positive the band has been. For someone who endlessly posted on social media about positivity and the need to exclude negative people from one's life, it seems that our original singer was an astonishingly negative and stymieing presence. We all live close to each other and the band members, spouses and children all remain in contact which makes it even harder when the singer is heard to say that she regards the preceding four years as an entirely negative experience and a waste of time - although I wonder if she'd feel this way if she'd walked away with all twenty-odd songs as she'd intended...

I've glossed over many, many minor and not-so-minor niggles here: the hours put into researching, sourcing and incorporating -and subsequently discarding- flavours of the month such as loopers, Ableton, IEMs etc; trying to maintain relationships with promoters and presenters when it was belatedly decided that a particular gig or session was not going to happen; the endless hours dedicated to promoting the band and hustling gigs; the irritation of spending entire rehearsals teasing a song out of a tiny half-idea while having more fully-realized contributions summarily dismissed - in truth, all the sorts of mundane things that eat away at most bands in the end. I do find it amusing that our potentially excellent band was preemptively derailed by the sorts of issues that seem to destroy bands *after* they've achieved some degree of success - one wonders how much social media played into this: that sad sort of non-fame that comes from having an instantly contactable audience of friends and fans. Friends who never seemed able to get to the gigs, I might add 🤐

If you've read this far, thank you - I've been meaning to vent for some time and I think there is something to be gained by sharing these tales of misery. Not that I'm miserable now - the new band is far more creative and fun and the future looks pretty bright. I do enjoy reading stories about unreasonable band members though so I hope others here have something to moan about too...

[jezzaboy]

We are in a somewhat same scenario.

Our singer left in November 2019, she gave us plenty of notice and was upfront about the situation. No probs there. But the lead guitarist is her other half and we agreed to continue with a different vocalist. 

We found one with more of a bluesy voice but she can belt it out, then covid with all plans put on hold. Got together in September last year and managed 1 rehearsal before lockdown again. There was a distinct lack of enthusiasm from guitar boy. 

Since then no contact from him, he has deleted his facebook account and isn`t answering calls or texts. So as he is a moaning negative type of guy, we have decided to move on without him. One of these guys that even when we played a great gig with the punters right into it, his face would still be tripping him. Myself and the drummer had had enough of his attitude anyway and it feels like a weight has been lifted from our shoulders.

It was always going to be hard to pick up after the singer left but I feel more positive about the future of the band now even if it means almost like starting from scratch again.

Edited May 15, 2021 by jezzaboy

[skidder652003]

"That sad sort of non fame" - I love that, nicking it...Great Post BTW!

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Dankology said:

The eye-opener has been how much more productive and positive the band has been. For someone who endlessly posted on social media about positivity and the need to exclude negative people from one's life, it seems that our original singer was an astonishingly negative and stymieing presence.

Honestly, one thing I have always noticed is that if you are positive and productive you don't spend a lot of time on social media telling people you need to be positive and productive. Likewise, being kind to people, looking after your friends, supporting your friends businesses etc.

[Happy Jack]

2 hours ago, Dankology said:

... collaboration being difficult for her as she "received her songs from the ether"

Great post, but in truth you really only needed to post this sentence.

😂

[TheGreek]

Frighteningly familiar unfortunately...it's a shame when egos get in the way of what we're in this for - the love of making music.

I'm about to embark in a new project with some local musicians - I'm trying to make it clear that there is no room for inflated egos, it's OUR band and we won't be the backing band for guitar solos and singers.

[zbd1960]

It's not unique to bands and it's a classic case of someone with an ego / narcissist who thinks they're the centre of the known universe and that everything ought to be in orbit about them. These people usually don't understand the concept of 'team'. I had a very unpleasant experience many years ago with an 'ego' and until you see through them, you can waste vast amounts of time trying to please them, keep them on board etc. It's remarkable how things improve when you stop trying to accommodate them.   

[BigRedX]

The OP is all too familiar.

I used to be in a band with a singer like that. She was a very good singer and excellent front person, but seemingly very insecure if any of her friends didn't like something that we'd written or recorded. She very much wanted to be a "star" and it was the rest of the band's job (and me in particular as the main composer/programmer/producer) to make it so, as long as she didn't have to do anything other than sing, front the band write the occasional lyric.

A lot of the composition was done "in the studio" once we had worked out the basic melodies and song structure, I'd spend several evenings doing the programming and production which could be often wiped out in seconds at the next practice with a "I don't like that" or "I played the demo to such-and-such (usually some second-rate DJ friend) and they think we should be doing this..." usually something completely outside of the genre of the rest of the songs. One of the latter type comments led to us having a blazing row at a rehearsal which finished the band for good. Personally I wasn't that bothered as I'd told the rest of the band I wanted to call it a day 6 month previously and had been talked out of it mostly by the singer...

Since the band folded she has done next to nothing musically.

[Beedster]

4 hours ago, Dankology said:

For someone who endlessly posted on social media about positivity and the need to exclude negative people from one's life, it seems that our original singer was an astonishingly negative and stymieing presence. 

The world is full of those people mate, all too often 'Positivity and the need to exclude negative people from one's life' translates as 'Narcissism and the need to exclude anyone who disagrees from one's life". Glad it's resolved

[Crawford13]

HiYup, being in a band is in general tough, and emotionally draining at times. Not having gigs to fill up the tanks is making it harder than ever. 

The band I am in just now is the best band I have been a part of. One interesting thing is that none of us knew each other at all before starting the band, it all came together through chance meetings and Facebook groups. 

The upside is that there was no personal history coming into the band, and actually we have all become really good friends over the 5 years of the band. 

We just released our debut album, if anyone fancies a listen. 

https://open.spotify.com/album/0Uo1yFOs4C5WPFhvh0QySO?si=6Z3wEeE2TYaIEX1rlaX0eg&utm_source=copy-link&dl_branch=1

[Beedster]

3 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

Great post, but in truth you really only needed to post this sentence.

😂

Indeed, it rather rang out didn't it Jack

[Pseudonym]

@Dankology, there is nothing about the situation you describe that could possibly have been improved by remaining in a creative relationship with that singer.

If it is any consolation, you have a body of useful work and -- much more importantly, perhaps, in the long run -- valuable experience in safeguarding your intellectual property against the predations of a narcissistic and staggeringly unprofessional colleague. If that singer ever becomes successful and pulls that kind of stroke, her life might become quite litigious.

Good luck to you and the rest of the band with whatever comes next.

[TheRev]

After 30+ years of playing in bands, I am still surprised at the number of people in bands who don't actually want to be in a band.  The trick is spotting these joy sponges before they rip all your enthusiasm out.

[Downunderwonder]

Melodies and lyrics contain copyright. Chord progressions do not.

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

Melodies and lyrics contain copyright. Chord progressions do not.

Although in several large recent cases, people have had to give away large amount of royalties because of (common) chord progressions in US legal cases.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

I read posts like this and it makes me think how lucky I must be. In the four decades I’ve been playing in bands, I’ve only ever had one disagreement. It was a re-boot of a long standing function band with a few changes in personnel. The new guitarist was complete tool and I walked after the first rehearsal.

Good post and thanks for sharing. I wish you all the best in your new format.

[Downunderwonder]

27 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Although in several large recent cases, people have had to give away large amount of royalties because of (common) chord progressions in US legal cases.

Much to the consternation of musically educated folks.

[Horrorhiker]

On 15/05/2021 at 10:54, Dankology said:

I've been meaning to post my own tale of woe for some time now - so I was about to post to Jakester's thread but ended up venting at too much length... Didn't want to thread-jack so please forgive the possibly unnecessary new topic.

<snip>

If you've read this far, thank you - I've been meaning to vent for some time and I think there is something to be gained by sharing these tales of misery. Not that I'm miserable now - the new band is far more creative and fun and the future looks pretty bright. I do enjoy reading stories about unreasonable band members though so I hope others here have something to moan about too...

Highly relatable. Successful and happy band..that's usually a choice between the two in my experience, unless you're very lucky. I've always stuck to original bands myself as most of the satisfaction is with writing, but it doesn't half make playing music a much harder, and a more caustic experience. You essentially need to be comfortable with travelling for 6 hours and playing to one man and his Dog, and then travelling 6 hours home again while having a laugh about it, in order to not get bitter. Always a mistake to let your local crowd inform your ideas around your popularity etc. A strange existence, where you simultaniously require a big ego on stage, and also no ego at all off of it. 

My old band has just got back together and some of that is down to me getting more laid back and happy to have fun. Getting a group together that's equitable and who all enjoy playing what you're playing is the thing to aim for imo, as apposed to 'fame' strategies. 

Its great that you got sorted. A bit of space from the toxic element really makes things clearer. I'm wishing you every success not only for your benefit, but for your ex singer's required reality check too. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Rich

[zbd1960]

Not a band but a group I'm involved with perfectly demonstrated the issues around use of social media for 'communication' and 'chat'. Someone takes a 'view' on what someone 'meant' and it gets toxic pretty quickly.  

[Horrorhiker]

23 minutes ago, zbd1960 said:

Not a band but a group I'm involved with perfectly demonstrated the issues around use of social media for 'communication' and 'chat'. Someone takes a 'view' on what someone 'meant' and it gets toxic pretty quickly.  

Unfortunately that's becoming more and more dominant. Probably not the place to have it, but there's an interesting debate as to whether the internet has done more harm than good. Imo, no matter how advanced the technology, humans will always be humans (I.e extremely flawed). 

[Dankology]

Thanks for all the nice comments. I'm a little bit shocked by how common this situation is - but then again, perhaps the confidence to front a band (and do so with your own lyrics too) might well come hand in hand with some complex ego/confidence issues 😉

It looks like quite a few of us are coming out of lockdown with new and hopefully happier projects - the very best of luck to all of us!

In terms of the slight detour into copyright issues - I'm not sure that the "song = top line and lyrics" policy still stands, if ever it did. I think the definition in law is something very vague like "a substantial element", which is probably why things like Andy Summers' arpeggiated part from Every Breath You Take isn't up for grabs. Rigidly sticking to the melody and lyrics angle leads to bizarre situations such as the period in which Jagger & Richards received royalties for Bittersweet Symphony due to that song featuring a sample of a melodic motif that they hadn't even written themselves. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Dankology

[BigRedX]

I think the idea that the song can be defined by the melody line and lyrics stems from the early days of commercial song writing when songs were produced by a composer and separate lyricist and then made available to the public by a publisher through printed sheet music, each party normally taking an equal third of the royalties.

Certainly when I joined the PRS in the early 80s new songs were registered with them by submitting a score containing the main musical themes (essentially the melody) and the lyrics.

This system also leads to the example where a main musical theme for a song ends up not being composed by the person who is credited as the songwriter. "Every Breathe You Take" is classic example of this. Sting is credited as the songwriter have written both the lyrics and the main vocal melody. Andy Summer's guitar part was just incidental at the time of composition, until some samples that part and since he's not credited as the songwriter, String gets all the royalties fro the sample usage. It's all down to what has been agreed by the band members.

At the other end of the scale U2 used to add their manager to all songwriting credits.

I've certainly been in bands where the composer for the purposes of the songwriting credits has only been the person who came up with the vocal melody or main instrumental idea and the other members contributions don't count towards the songwriting credits. I've also been in bands where all the band members get an equal credit for all the songs that were written while they were in the band irrespective of how great or small their actual compositional contribution actually was.

The reality is that these days that songwriting credits can have little correlation to the actual contributions of the musicians/songwriters involved. Also exactly how much each of the named songwriters actually earns as a proportion the songs is unknown - there no requirement for everyone to have an equal share.

[Dankology]

I seem to remember reading that Madness had a system whereby the originator of the song got 50% with the remaining 50% being split equally between all of the band (so the main songwriter would get 50% + 1/7 of the other 50%) - I quite like this as an idea although I'm sure it's not something that would work for every band.

[BigRedX]

Which is why it's important to have a songwriting credit agreement in place fairly early on when starting a new band.

[Lozz196]

In my last band we agreed that all of the songs were written by all of us, irrespective of how much or how little input there was from each of us. The end result of the songs was only because of our individual inputs so it was decided that we all wrote them. As our singer put it, if we had a song that made us 10 million quid a third of that should be enough, and if all of our songs amounted to nothing then a third of that equally should be enough.