East Pre makes pickups sound better, even in Passive mode

[eude]

16 hours ago, Hellzero said:

Here are the main 8 basses I'm playing these days, in alphabetical order.

I think I'm quite very well served...

ACG Finn R Type 5 Fretless :

Ibanez AFR A104F (Fretless) :

Leduc Masterpiece HMP 624 :

Leduc Masterpiece MP 524 :

Leduc Masterpiece MP 628 SF (Fretless) :

Leduc U-Basse U-MM4 SF (fretless) :

Leduc U-Contrebasse 6 Moaï :

Le Fay Remington Steele 6 RHT CC CAP Big Block (fretless) :

What an absolutely stunning collection!
The ACG and the Le Fay are my favourites of the bunch.

I've got a fair few basses myself now, I rotate them on a weekly basis to make sure nothing gets neglected...

Cheers,
Eude

[LukeFRC]

the passive volume, blend and tone pots do make a difference on sound - the values and also the way the taper on the blend work. There is a difference in sound for if you use 500k pots or 250k pots  - one will sound a bit brighter, the other a bit darker. Its not hard to imagine that John East picked a slightly brighter sounding set up that would work with humbuckers and single coils - knowing that the passive tone could then correct it if it was too bright. 
Ibanez have chosen values based on cost and that work with the preamp. John East has been able to design a completely separate passive path and optimise it how he wants. 

If I gave you two basses, one of which had a slight bit more going on in the top end, it's not surprising it would sound better! 

[Killed_by_Death]

9 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

There is a difference in sound for if you use 500k pots or 250k pots

That's the thing, Ibanez are already using 500K Ohm pots.

I would completely understand if this was happening on a Fender, since they infamously use 250K Ohm pots.

 

[LukeFRC]

15 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

That's the thing, Ibanez are already using 500K Ohm pots.

I would completely understand if this was happening on a Fender, since they infamously use 250K Ohm pots.

 

Do you know what value and type pots John east is using in the passive volume, blend and tone control? 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

Earlier in the thread someone measured a treble-cut pot from an East pre-amp & it's 500K Ohm, but someone else pointed out that East might not be using traditional Carbon tracks, which could make a difference with the Volume & Balance pots.

 

[LukeFRC]

36 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

Earlier in the thread someone measured a treble-cut pot from an East pre-amp & it's 500K Ohm, but someone else pointed out that East might not be using traditional Carbon tracks, which could make a difference with the Volume & Balance pots.

 

There’s 4 potentiometers - the passive tone pot, a volume and two in the balance....

[Killed_by_Death]

 

There are 4 Resistive tracks, but 3 pots. The balance is still a single pot, but dual-gang.

A different type of tracks could make a difference with the Volume & Balance, but since the treble-cut is in parallel, I doubt the type of material of the track makes a difference.

 

[LukeFRC]

2 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

There are 4 Resistive tracks, but 3 pots. The balance is still a single pot, but dual-gang.

A different type of tracks could make a difference with the Volume & Balance, but since the treble-cut is in parallel, I doubt the type of material of the track makes a difference.

 

My point was more that measuring one pot doesn’t tell you thst the circuit is the same 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

My point of starting the thread was to understand how they are different, so I agree they're not the same, but it's not because of the treble-cut pot.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

2 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

Do you know what value and type pots John east is using in the passive volume, blend and tone control? 

The answer is no, I only know the value of one of those, the treble-cut knob, which would probably have the least impact, as it's the same value that Ibanez is using.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

Ibanez uses 500K Ohm Balance & Volume, so if we're assuming a different value of Resistance is the cause of this phenomenon, the East pre would need 1 MegOhm values (something higher than 500K Ohm), but that would affect the taper & actually cause more highs loss when blending away from center or when lowering the Volume.

The not Carbon traces makes sense, but TBH I've never experienced a pot that wasn't Carbon trace, AFAIK.

Where can one purchase pots using a higher-quality trace that would fit?

 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

I took another look at the Warwick wiring diagram & they use an A/C taper blend, the same as Ibanez, so IF East is using a M/N taper..., maybe...

but...

I changed the A/C taper blend in my SRX eXtreme (SRX) for another Volume, & didn't notice a difference at all.

Maybe that difference would be more noticeable with the MK1 Bartolini's?, because my SRX had the Ibanez PFR (Passive Full Range) pickups:

 

[LukeFRC]

1 minute ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

I took another look at the Warwick wiring diagram & they use an A/C taper blend, the same as Ibanez, so IF East is using a M/N taper..., maybe...

but...

I changed the A/C taper blend in my SRX eXtreme (SRX) for another Volume, & didn't notice a difference at all.

Maybe that difference would be more noticeable with the MK1 Bartolini's?, because my SRX had the Ibanez PFR (Passive Full Range) pickups:

 

I would put money on the east using MN taper on the blend- the blend in passive is very similar to in active in sound - and the Active buffered blend will be doing the Equivalent of an MN pot.

if the bass had a AC pot then the change to an MN alone could be the bit that sounds “better” - - even if all values of pots are the same mid point On an MN is a fair bit different to a AC

[LukeFRC]

So now we’ve cleared up why a East uni pre might sound better even If turned off ... are you getting one? 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

If it's a simple M/N taper, I'd just get a M/N taper blend.

 

TBH I had plans to change both my basses to Volume/Volume (similar to a M/N taper) back when I changed the SRX, but after changing the SRX & not being able to discern a difference, I left my Premium Soundgear as-is.

Some claim that the A/C taper helps to quell the mid-scoop that happens with both pickups on full-volume, but I also didn't notice that with two volumes. However, that might have been from the higher source Impedance of the humbucking pickups.

Some days I wish my EHB didn't have the passive/active switch, I'd rip out the controls & make it 100% passive:

Volume (neck)

Volume (bridge)

treble-cut

bass-cut

[Killed_by_Death]

 

It also just occurred to me that others would probably enjoy that mid-scoop (the perception of more highs & lows), personally I wouldn't.

 

[Woodinblack]

12 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

.Some days I wish my EHB didn't have the passive/active switch, I'd rip out the controls & make it 100% passive:

Volume (neck)

Volume (bridge)

treble-cut

bass-cut

Why don't you then? You could use the switch for series parallel

Edited April 20, 2021 by Woodinblack

[Killed_by_Death]

 

That's a valid use for it, but...

can't series/parallel the Big-Splits (intra-pick), Nordstrand only allows the customers access to two conductors

 

re: inter-pickup series

If I went Volume/Volume, I'd actually wire them in series. This way you get the most output when both are on full-volume, & it brings down the Resonant peak (more lows), having 4x the Inductance as the same two pickups in Parallel.

I would like to hear the Big-Splits wired intra-pickup parallel.

There's the option to get Big-Splits with four wires, or maybe I could ship mine to them for the 'operation'. I might even be able to convince the local luthier to do it, he was an Electronics guru before he became a luthier.

I don't really like those inter-pickup series/parallel switches, because when in series that way both pickups are full-on, there's no individual volume, but with two volumes in series you can adjust the volume of each pickup independently.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

I used to tinker quite a bit, but on 100% passive stuff, here's the inside of the EHB:

not as bad as the Premium Soundgear, for that one each pot has it's own little 'foxhole', which makes it all the more difficult to replace

 

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Killed_by_Death said:

can't series/parallel the Big-Splits (intra-pick), Nordstrand only allows the customers access to two conductors

I meant with each other.

1 hour ago, Killed_by_Death said:

If I went Volume/Volume, I'd actually wire them in series. This way you get the most output when both are on full-volume, & it brings down the Resonant peak (more lows), having 4x the Inductance as the same two pickups in Parallel.

I would like to hear the Big-Splits wired intra-pickup parallel.

You do whenever they are balanced dont you?

[Woodinblack]

42 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

I used to tinker quite a bit, but on 100% passive stuff, here's the inside of the EHB:

Not too bad. Certainly easier to work on than the 5005 was.

42 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

not as bad as the Premium Soundgear, for that one each pot has it's own little 'foxhole', which makes it all the more difficult to replace

Same with the 5005, except there are more pots.

[Killed_by_Death]

 

The default internal wiring for the Big-Splits is series. In the photo you can see three wires from each pickup, one is chassis-Ground. For parallel (internal) switching you'd need to have 4 conductors available, all 4 ends of the two coils. (2 x 2)

 

[Woodinblack]

7 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

The default internal wiring for the Big-Splits is series. In the photo you can see three wires from each pickup, one is chassis-Ground. For parallel (internal) switching you'd need to have 4 conductors available, all 4 ends of the two coils. (2 x 2)

I know, again I was refering to series / parallel between the two pickups.

[Killed_by_Death]

23 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

You do whenever they are balanced dont you?

no, as per my explanation above, they're in series internally, I'd like to hear them in parallel internally

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Killed_by_Death
grabbed the wrong quote

[Killed_by_Death]

 

The series/parallel switching between pickups has a bit of a compromise that's a bigger issue when you're using *humbuckers (in this case split-coil humbuckers), when the switch is in Series you can't blend the pickups, & that is the time when you'd most want to blend them. 

Series Volume/Volume seems like a nice solution to that, because you can blend all you like & if you want high (like parallel wiring) you just roll back the neck pickup.

 

*humbuckers have more coils & thus more Inductance, putting them in Series lowers the Resonant peak, resulting in more lows

maybe too many lows if all 4 coils are in Series

 

I noticed East posted a few times on TalkBass, but seems to have gone silent there.

I honestly expected him to be a member here.