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Crawford13

Paul McCartney - under appreciated?

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

Don't feed the troll.

Not trolling at all. I shouldn't have to feel like I have to mindlessly agree with what's seen as popular opinion for fear of not falling in line, like the emperor's new clothes. I'm entitled to think for myself and have my own opinion. I hope that's allowed.

The 5 of them were a chance coming together of the right people with the right management at the right time. Without GM's motivation and creative direction and input, they would have been 4 ordinary lads winging it on instruments that they could barely play.

 Some of their interviews were quite illuminating, such as this one with Lennon

 

Edited by TheLowDown

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On 24/03/2021 at 10:31, Old Man Riva said:

 

The only references I can recall were U2, of all people, covering Helter Skelter and referencing them in amongst artists such as John Coltrane, BB King and Bills Holliday as part of the Rattle and Hum period. To my ears, it all sounded a bit odd, and dare I say, uncool at the time (which says more about me at the time than it does about multi million album selling rock combo U2!).

I was one of those around when U2 released that album, I was in the US when the Joshua tree came out from which tour much of the rattle and hum movie footage and tracks came. I still watch the extended version occasionally now 
I recall that I’d never heard BB King play, and I had no idea about billie holiday either. It was like they opened the curtains onto a works I never knew was there. I did realise that I really liked the way that Adam was playing on those two songs though - angel of Harlem and When love comes to town 

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8 hours ago, TheLowDown said:

Not trolling at all. I shouldn't have to feel like I have to mindlessly agree with what's seen as popular opinion for fear of not falling in line, like the emperor's new clothes. I'm entitled to think for myself and have my own opinion. I hope that's allowed.

The 5 of them were a chance coming together of the right people with the right management at the right time. Without GM's motivation and creative direction and input, they would have been 4 ordinary lads winging it on instruments that they could barely play.

 Some of their interviews were quite illuminating, such as this one with Lennon

 

Of course you are allowed your own opinion, as is everyone else. 

Ultimately every band is a chance coming together of people, even family members it's chance that they are family. 

Just about every great album has a great producer behind it, especially when there is more than 1 creative person in the band, producers are there to steer the ship and get the best out of people. If you haven't worked with a great producer it's perhaps difficult to appreciate what they do. 

As for the Lennon interview, all the beatles were very bitter against Paul post beatles due to the law suit so perhaps not the most impartial source when it comes to what actually happened. 

Sorry for the long post but finally I have to address your point about Paul barely being able to play. I think that there were very few bass players in the 60s in the same league as McCartney. 

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9 hours ago, TheLowDown said:

Not trolling at all. I shouldn't have to feel like I have to mindlessly agree with what's seen as popular opinion for fear of not falling in line, like the emperor's new clothes. I'm entitled to think for myself and have my own opinion. I hope that's allowed.

The 5 of them were a chance coming together of the right people with the right management at the right time. Without GM's motivation and creative direction and input, they would have been 4 ordinary lads winging it on instruments that they could barely play.

 Some of their interviews were quite illuminating, such as this one with Lennon

 

The vast majority of bands in the 60s and early 70s were winging it. There was no blueprint for pop or rock as they were making it up. There was no right or wrong way simply your own way. Music lessons? Unless you were well off and wanted to play in an orchestra they were rarer than hens teeth. You cant judge the beginnings of rock music by todays technology or easily available instruction.

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7 hours ago, mikel said:

Music lessons? Unless you were well off and wanted to play in an orchestra they were rarer than hens teeth. You cant judge the beginnings of rock music by todays technology or easily available instruction.

Paul McCartney did have music lessons and he tried to learn theory, but quickly gave it up because he found it too difficult and challenging.

 

8 hours ago, Crawford13 said:

all the beatles were very bitter against Paul post beatles due to the law suit so perhaps not the most impartial source when it comes to what actually happened

Paul wasn't mentioned in the clip.

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26 minutes ago, TheLowDown said:

Paul McCartney did have music lessons and he tried to learn theory, but quickly gave it up because he found it too difficult and challenging.

 

Paul wasn't mentioned in the clip.

I bet he learnt it later, like a lot of things, if you can't see the point of it, it's difficult to stay focused

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19 hours ago, TheLowDown said:

Not trolling at all. I shouldn't have to feel like I have to mindlessly agree with what's seen as popular opinion for fear of not falling in line, like the emperor's new clothes. I'm entitled to think for myself and have my own opinion. I hope that's allowed.

The 5 of them were a chance coming together of the right people with the right management at the right time. Without GM's motivation and creative direction and input, they would have been 4 ordinary lads winging it on instruments that they could barely play.

 Some of their interviews were quite illuminating, such as this one with Lennon

 

Barely play? By the time they began recording they had gone through the Hamburg learning curve, gigs so long and intense they were as tight as a very tight thing and could play and harmonise without being able to hear each other. Self taught does not equal barely able to play.

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12 hours ago, Crawford13 said:

Sorry for the long post but finally I have to address your point about Paul barely being able to play. I think that there were very few bass players in the 60s in the same league as McCartney. 

Agree, I Saw Her Standing There is a good case to that. Once you get the hang of it it’s easy enough, but Macca sang lead vocals on that, not quite so easy doing both. I just watched a live clip of them doing it in 1963 and he doesn’t even look at the fretboard whilst playing. 

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Bach? Over-rated organ humper. Irving Berlin? Total amateur, couldn't read music.

People who don't know stuff will disagree with me but I'm used to it.

 

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4 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Bach? Over-rated organ humper. Irving Berlin? Total amateur, couldn't read music.

People who don't know stuff will disagree with me but I'm used to it.

 

Mozart? Flatpack ear candy for the masses. I said I don't like what McCartney produced. I would agree he's a talented musician, but his output strikes me as mostly trite, twee, obvious doggerel. People who don't know stuff will disagree with me, but I'm used to it.

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Ooh it's like being back in the 60's. Are you Beatles or Stones? McCartney or Lennon? Such strong opinions too :)

My guess would be that most of the strongest views are from people of my generation who grew up with this stuff. For a different generation it would be Oasis or Blur. I've played in covers bands where people who are old enough to know better won't play Oasis songs because they were Blur. Anything from 10 years either side and they have no problems.

The thing people forget is that the Beatles were a pop band. The pop band at the time in that they were a major force within those few bands that were inventing British pop music. Not that they didn't stand on the shoulders of giants, mainly black American giants. We barely knew about these giants at the time, we only found out about them when British bands brought them here. If you play now in bands with guitar, electric bass and drums then this is how what we think of as bands happened. I was a Stones fan and looking back there was a genuine split in music, The Stones  were very much part of a London scene of musicians whose music was truer to the blues music they were listening to. If you listened to the Stones it wasn't long before you discovered Robert Johnson, Muddy Waters and so on.

The Beatles were a pop band from the start. If you don't like pop then you aren't going to be big fans. There are an awful lot of earworms in their back catalogue though.

As to Paul as a bassist though, well I've only just started learning any of his stuff, I've never wanted to be in one of those bands that only play stuff from their own teenage years and most of what I've done has been fairly rock based. My Duo partner is a big Beatles fan and a mutual friend has moved down this way so suddenly I'm playing a lot more 60's stuff. i've reached a stage where just playing anything with anyone is fun and guess what? There are some lovely bass lines in a load of those old songs. It wasn't just McCartney either but he is particularly inventive, and it is quite instructive listening to how much he improves over time. The playing in the early songs was pretty generic and limited but the progress he made between 62 and 1970 wa an awful lot more than I managed in 8 years. I'm finding some of his bass challenging and interesting and I'm only copying. 

I think people who 'hate' music are just telling us something about themselves. We all like different stuff and we are all free to do so, you don't have to 'like' anything. People hating the Beatles? It's like being back in the 60's :)

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On 24/03/2021 at 11:59, Mykesbass said:

Short answer, No.

Longer answer: One of the most highly appreciated songwriters of all times. His bass lines were an integral part of that song writing process. So even if Jo(e) Public don't jump up and down hailing his bass playing it doesn't mean it is under appreciated. 

 

 My take as well and to be honest, I've always thought that over the years....

I can say that with confidence now I'm 64.

:D

 

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16 hours ago, PaulWarning said:

I bet he learnt it later, like a lot of things, if you can't see the point of it, it's difficult to stay focused

Me too. I did much better on my own 

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3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

. I've played in covers bands where people who are old enough to know better won't play Oasis songs because they were Blur.

I won't play oasis, because I really hate the sound. I am not bothered by blur either way and they are not of my generation either. TBH, although the whiney horrible sound of oasis puts my teeth on edge, what I hate more is "cover bands playing oasis" and "drunk people in pubs singing oasis"

Beatles, not so bothered about either way, we do "come together" and "twist and shout" (I know that's not really Beatles but it is), and I enjoy doing both of them, no particular desire to do more.

pin the grand scheme of pop I think he was a good bass player, singer and songwriter even if not particularly my thing. I think they moved music on. Also seeing them playing live on early recordings they are very tight as a group and confident, I would be happy to be in a group that tight, whatever they were playing 

 

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4 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

 

I think people who 'hate' music are just telling us something about themselves. We all like different stuff and we are all free to do so, you don't have to 'like' anything. People hating the Beatles? It's like being back in the 60's :)

For the record, I don't hate the Beatles. In fact I love the Beatles. I just don't particularly like Paul McCartney as a bass player, singer or songwriter

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You don't have 5 songs in the top 5 positions of the US top 10 unless you're the best there is. They were that good and then they went and got better! Good enough to change the way the whole recording industry operated.

You can hate them and you can try to ignore them but you can't escape them. They influenced all your heroes so, like it or not, they have influenced you!! Poetic justice for all the haters.

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Definitely Chris, from what I’ve read how The Beatles were in their Hamburg days wasn’t that far removed from punk, which is my main area of music.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

Definitely Chris, from what I’ve read how The Beatles were in their Hamburg days wasn’t that far removed from punk, which is my main area of music.

indeed, the sound track from the Backbeat Band, from the film Backbeat is very punk rock

 

Edited by PaulWarning
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I thought at the time when The Beatles were popular, I thought they were an "ok" band. When I first started playing bass, I didn't rate Macca that much and didn't understand what all the fuss was about. 

It was only when I bought the twin CD anthology 1967 - 1970 in the late 90's and listened to it through headphones that I finally "got it" about Macca. Great playing with a pick, note choice, phrasing and musicality was definitely the order of the day, and having seen Rick Beato do a breakdown on the harmony on one of their (The Beatles) songs last year (he couldn't name it in case the video was blocked) confirmed what a bunch of musical geniuses they were.

It's a bit sad that I've seen a lot of hate on YouTube and Facebook about The Beatles in recent times, but it's also great to see a lot of musically clued in people chime in and say how great the band was.

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4 minutes ago, louisthebass said:

It's a bit sad that I've seen a lot of hate on YouTube and Facebook about The Beatles in recent times ...

The Internet has never been short of sad people desperate to make an impression by striking ludicrous, provocative poses. Most of them fall into the camp of "I don't get it, so therefore they're all complete cr*p and so is anyone who disagrees with me".

 

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2 hours ago, chris_b said:

You don't have 5 songs in the top 5 positions of the US top 10 unless you're the best there is.

Indeed, chart position is important - they got one more number one song in the top ten than Mariah Carey, and almost as many top 10 hits as Drake and Madonna. Also only 10 weeks less cumulative time in the charts as Justin Beiber.

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36 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Indeed, chart position is important - they got one more number one song in the top ten than Mariah Carey, and almost as many top 10 hits as Drake and Madonna. Also only 10 weeks less cumulative time in the charts as Justin Beiber.

You're quite right ... having charts made up of downloads rather than actual copies purchased has flattered some artistes to the nth degree. 🙂

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