Equipment shaping music, or music shaping equipment?

[Maude]

A comment in another thread got me thinking again about a topic which might make for some interesting discussion. 

The comment was by @Bilbo and was "The  first electric basses were invented just at the point where Pop music started to become a thing." 

Which made me think which came first? Was the first bass designed because the music emerging at that time needed it, or was the 'new' music made because the new instrument made it possible?

Throughout the years which has had the bigger influence on the other? 

For instance, did bands get louder because of PA developments, or did PAs develop because bands were using multiple amps to get more volume? 

Did effects develop because of bands creating effects like cutting speaker cones for distortion or phase effects caused by tape issues, and have effects changed how a band sounds or has how a band sounds changed effects? 

Then the electronics of the late 70s and 80s, was the explosion of early electronic music due to the tech, or the was explosion of tech due to the bands pioneering it?

Then onto the modern computer age. Is modern music shaped by being able to be made by one person at home, or have people fallen out of love with full bands and pushed for equipment that allowed you to become a 'one man band'? 

So what do you think, has the tech been playing catch up to the latest bands, or have bands been playing catch up to the latest tech? 

[Dad3353]

It becomes possible, so gets used. Folks didn't used to use the telephone before the telephone made it possible. Once electric bass existed, electric bass was (and is...) used.

[Maude]

5 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

It becomes possible, so gets used. Folks didn't used to use the telephone before the telephone made it possible. Once electric bass existed, electric bass was (and is...) used.

Yes, but what I'm wondering is were musicians pushing the builders for development or did the builders make what they thought would be good?

Did some musicians make their own innovations which were picked up by builders, if so, who did what? 

Who influenced who? 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Maude

[Dad3353]

Someone has a crazy idea and makes it. It happens every day; it's just the 'successful' ones we get to see. The bubble kazoo..? Cryogenic frogs..? Blueberry car batteries..? No, those ideas didn't make the grade (or haven't yet; time will tell for the frogs...). How many things were invented that don't get to mass market..? It's always the daft idea first; some work, and get to the Public. Most don't.

[Teebs]

2 minutes ago, Maude said:

Yes, but what I'm wondering is were musicians pushing the builders for development or did the builders make what they thought would be good?

Who influenced who? 

I think after the initial step, whether it be from a designer/ builder/ technician, or from the artist using existing tech. in a new way, the two sides then drive each other forward in an ever increasing race forward - a bit like the arms race between America and USSR.

They both feed off each other after the initial idea.

[Teebs]

2 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Cryogenic frogs..? Blueberry car batteries..? No, those ideas didn't make the grade (or haven't yet; time will tell for the frogs...).

[Nail Soup]

Been posted here before but for example the invention of mics/amps for gigs was just intended to make the voice louder.

But it actually made crooning possible.

It was not demand for crooning which led to mic/amp invention.

[Nail Soup]

And the 303 was definitely not invented to meet a demand for rave music.

In general musicians  find a way to abuse the inventions.

[Doctor J]

Was Pete Townshend not a force behind Marshall making amps which clipped? As I recall, Jim Marshall was trying to make a clean and loud amp and Pete insisted he wanted it to break up and be loud.

[Bilbo]

It is an interesting discussion. Before they invented the microphone, singers could not cope with musicians and a lot more music was instrumental. Once microphones and amps became available, the bands became peripheral and instrumental music became the exception rather than the norm. 

[Maude]

47 minutes ago, Nail Soup said:

And the 303 was definitely not invented to meet a demand for rave music.

No but I assume it was a result of the popularity of very early electronic bands like Kraftwerk. 

 

47 minutes ago, Nail Soup said:

In general musicians  find a way to abuse the inventions.

This is probably a very good point. 

 

12 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Was Pete Townshend not a force behind Marshall making amps which clipped? As I recall, Jim Marshall was trying to make a clean and loud amp and Pete insisted he wanted it to break up and be loud.

Yes I recall Marshall basically building what The Who needed. 

 

[Teebs]

1 minute ago, Bilbo said:

It is an interesting discussion. Before they invented the microphone, singers could not cope with musicians and a lot more music was instrumental. Once microphones and amps became available, the bands became peripheral and instrumental music became the exception rather than the norm. 

And the vocals struggling with an ensemble of musicians influenced the style of singing, for example operatic vocals which project the voice 'unnaturally' above the orchestra.

[Doctor J]

Alembic were in cahoots with the Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane, CSNY, etc, building them custom PA rigs before moving onto instruments with them.

[Bilbo]

I remember working for Probation in Epsom and there was this lovely admin lady nearing retirement; very sweet, very quiet and innocuous. We were chatting one day and someone mentioned Marshall amps. Turned out the admin person was asked out on a date by Jim Marshall when she was a teenager and used to hang around with The Who. 😮

[Maude]

Dave Davies (The Kinks) often gets credited with the first distortion but apparently it had been going on for ages. Obviously overdriven valve amps distorted but there were people intentionally damaging amps, dislodging valves and putting holes in speakers to create distortion way before Dave Davies probably even picked up a guitar. 

So Overdrive and Distortion pedals were made as a result of the music being created already. 

I know it's Wikipedia but this is interesting.

[TheLowDown]

Velvet Underground were toying with distortion and feedback in 1964/65, but their album wasn't released until 67 due to legal issues. Arguably, they could have been the first.

 

 

For "Equipment shaping music, or music shaping equipment?", it's very much a 2 way process feeding into each other. I don't think either can be claimed to be the major driver.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by TheLowDown

[Bilbo]

Chicken and the egg, I guess. 

 

I know that saxophones were not expected to be the flexible instruments they ended up being and it is entirely arguable that the musicians made the instruments make the music they heard rather than the musicians potential being defined by the potential of the instruments original design. How could anyone predict what Michael Manring could do with a bass and at the same time argue that the Zon Hyperbass was probably an idea that came out of the concepts Manring was working on? I know that Anthony Jackson was asking for a 6-string Contrabass long before any luthier came up with the idea (although a C-extension on a double bass was already a thing, if not a five string double bass with a low B).

Edited March 5, 2021 by Bilbo

[Maude]

@TheLowDown The Kinks 'You Really Got Me' (slashed speaker) and The Stones 'Satisfaction' (Fuzz Tone pedal) were '64 &' 65 respectively as well, but they don't appear have been the first. 

Link Wray on 'Rumble' ('58) had poked holes in his speaker with a pencil to get distortion. 

Grady Martin used a damaged preamp to purposefully get a distorted sound on his 1961 track 'The Fuzz'. The Ventures then asked to recreate that sound and were given an early Fuzz box to record their 1962 track '2000 Pound Bee'. The Fuzz Tone (Stones' Satisfaction) was released in '62. 

It's all in the link I posted, and is quite interesting. 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Maude

[Stub Mandrel]

I think electric bass opened up new possibilities. Being fretted and more accessible it meant much more complex basslines could be played with less time to develop technique and the volume to be heard (compared to upright bass)

[sammybee]

Apple making LogicPro so cheap and music software companies generally have to bear a lot of the responsibility for the drivel that passes as 'music' these days!

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, sammybee said:

Apple making LogicPro so cheap and music software companies generally have to bear a lot of the responsibility for the drivel that passes as 'music' these days!

... although comb and paper, and the kazoo, have been guilty, too, in the past and ongoing. 

[Maude]

1 hour ago, sammybee said:

Apple making LogicPro so cheap and music software companies generally have to bear a lot of the responsibility for the drivel that passes as 'music' these days!

Although not disagreeing that there's a lot of drivel around these days, I think there's been a lot of drivel around since the beginning of music. Through the passage of time the drivel gets forgotten but it's always been there. 

[Maude]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I think electric bass opened up new possibilities. Being fretted and more accessible it meant much more complex basslines could be played with less time to develop technique and the volume to be heard (compared to upright bass)

Although we're all bass biased I think you're right, and it must've been a massive leap to suddenly have a more portable, shorter scale, fretted bass that you could strap on a walk around whilst playing. Suddenly stuff that was virtually impossible on upright could be attempted with success on a fretted electric bass. 

[Bilbo]

I don't think it happened suddenly. I think it took 20 years before the fretted bass came into its own. 

[Doddy]

13 minutes ago, Maude said:

Although we're all bass biased I think you're right, and it must've been a massive leap to suddenly have a more portable, shorter scale, fretted bass that you could strap on a walk around whilst playing. Suddenly stuff that was virtually impossible on upright could be attempted with success on a fretted electric bass. 

But a lot of upright players were very hesitant to play the Fender Bass when it first came out. Those that did move to it were still playing the traditional bass role, they weren't exactly moving around and playing anything crazy. It took a good few years before it started to come in to it's own as a legit instrument.