A luthier's experience with tonewoods

[BigRedX]

IMO tone wood only applies to acoustic instruments where the wood and construction make an important contribution to sound.

On a solid electric instrument it's just wood. Or Aluminium, or Carbon Fibre etc...

[Doctor J]

In acoustic instruments the wood directly vibrates the air generating the soundwaves you hear. In a solidbody electric instrument, not quite.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Doctor J

[tegs07]

9 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

IMO tone wood only applies to acoustic instruments where the wood and construction make an important contribution to sound.

On a solid electric instrument it's just wood. Or Aluminium, or Carbon Fibre etc...

I think the generic name is constantly being confused for the marketing of the product. It’s called tonewood like decking is called decking. 
 

I am open to the idea that all components of a bass, be it wood, nut material, bridge or strings will affect the way it sounds.. to what degree is another matter entirely.

Edited March 10, 2021 by tegs07

[Muzz]

...and I'm not even going to start on Jens Ritter's 10,000 year old mammoth ivory for making nuts...adds that 'Neolithic Tone', which is so sought after... 🙂

[tegs07]

1 minute ago, Muzz said:

...and I'm not even going to start on Jens Ritter's 10,000 year old mammoth ivory for making nuts...adds that 'Neolithic Tone', which is so sought after... 🙂

That comes down to marketing piffle. It’s like wine and perfume.. they employ a team of people to flog the stuff. It doesn’t mean the technique and knowledge of the people making the product is diminished in any way.

[Doctor J]

Brah, don't deny the tonemammoth.

[Muzz]

37 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

That comes down to marketing piffle. It’s like wine and perfume.. they employ a team of people to flog the stuff. It doesn’t mean the technique and knowledge of the people making the product is diminished in any way.

Just a smidge of their integrity, then...for marketing purposes, natch... 🙂

I might amend my original stance to be '95% of the talk about tonewoods is marketing piffle...' 🙂

[tegs07]

Just now, Muzz said:

Just a smidge of their integrity, then...for marketing purposes, natch... 🙂

I might amend my original stance to be '95% of the talk about tonewoods is marketing piffle...' 🙂

You are aware that you used the terms marketing and integrity in the same sentence? I’m with Bill Hicks when it comes to this.

[Muzz]

Yup...I did pick on your 'diminished' tho...so that kinda works either way... 🙂

[Kev]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

And this one is by Bas Extravaganza, and is actual plywood bought from his local DIY superstore and built to show that it perfectly possible to make a great sounding bass out of very ordinary materials.

Always a struggle to find a parking space for gigs in town.  At least with this bass I know I've always got a safe spot under the E string.

[Kiwi]

On 25/02/2021 at 20:57, TheLowDown said:

I recently read on another forum an interesting viewpoint based on one luthier's long term experience of tone-woods, and it is most likely the best interpretation of tone-woods I've heard so far.

You can read the much longer version in the link above, but to summarise:

• -the stronger/stiffer the structure of the bass, the less the choice of woods matter to the tone. In most neck-thru solid bodies, the wood has zero effect on the tone. In most bolt-on solid bodies, the wood has almost zero effect on the tone. Only the strings and pickups matter to tone.
•  
• -the more structural weaknesses in the bass - such as cavities in hollow bodies, semi hollow, and acoustic guitars, and relatively soft wood - the more the woods matter to the tone. This is where you can hear the character between different woods and which is what luthiers work with.
• -even in basses where there are structural weaknesses, you can't say that if it has X wood then it will sound any different to Y wood. It's possible to get a maple body/neck bass to sound exactly the same as what people perceive a mahogany body/neck bass to sound like, and vice versa, by shaping the weaknesses.
•  
• -for those that believe that woods matter to the tone and those that believe that woods don't matter to the tone,  you're both half correct.

Discuss.

 

Agree 100% in principle but finding people skilled enough to make a maple bass sound like a mahogany one is the stuff of legend.  Let alone specific tonal nuances of how different masses of wood might interact.

It's definitely true that the more laminations there are in the neck of a bass,  the less the wood matters.  And it's also true in my experience that the fewer wood types there are in a bass,  the more distinctive it sounds (for better or worse). 

It's all about the neck btw.  It bears the string tension and has the most impact on tone.  In a bolt on bass the body has more of an impact than the wings on a neck through, depending on construction.  Softer woods also dampen certain frequencies,  the stiffer ones preserve them depending on where in the bass they're used.  Perfectly stiff instruments will sound nearly identical regardless of what they're made from.  

[FDC484950]

Before Christmas I sold a MusicMan Sterling with maple neck and rosewood board. I recently bought a new one with maple neck and board. It has thrown my assumptions out the window - generally I prefer a denser hardwood board as I find it makes the low B tighter. However in this instance the maple neck and board sounds pretty much identical to the previous one I owned, but the low B is noticeably better. The electronics, hardware and strings are identical, basses set up the same, neck joints tight and  both are ash-bodied and almost identical weight. Clearly something is having some kind of effect - maybe the wood, and if so probably not the species but the specimens themselves. I guess the bolt in joint has an effect too - if it’s tight then presumably vibrations get transferred more truly. I’ve not tried undoing the neck bolts a couple of turns but I’d guess it would eventually deaden the sound.

[BigRedX]

There's a trick that guitarists with bolt on neck instruments sometimes use and which might be applicable the basses made in the same way.

Slacken off the strings so they are not exerting any pull on the neck. Then very slightly loosen the bolts/screws attaching the neck to the body. This only needs to be the smallest amount so that the neck isn't held completely tightly in place, no more than 1 turn and probably less than that. Then tune the strings back up to pitch. This has the effect of pulling the neck as tightly into the pocket as is possible. Then tighten up the neck screws again. It probably won't make much difference to instruments where the neck is a very snug fit in the pocket, but on some it can make a noticeable change to the sound.

[PlungerModerno]

8 hours ago, Doctor J said:

Is a maple neck and rosewood fretboard one? 😁

Nah maple syrup, even if it's frozen solid with a layer of rosewater on top ain't wood!

Although I bet it would sound sweet! 

[Kiwi]

10 hours ago, BigRedX said:

There's a trick that guitarists with bolt on neck instruments sometimes use and which might be applicable the basses made in the same way.

Slacken off the strings so they are not exerting any pull on the neck. Then very slightly loosen the bolts/screws attaching the neck to the body. This only needs to be the smallest amount so that the neck isn't held completely tightly in place, no more than 1 turn and probably less than that. Then tune the strings back up to pitch. This has the effect of pulling the neck as tightly into the pocket as is possible. Then tighten up the neck screws again. It probably won't make much difference to instruments where the neck is a very snug fit in the pocket, but on some it can make a noticeable change to the sound.

The neck will still sit true to wherever its bolt holes are located once the neck is tightened back up.  I usually just check how tight the neck bolts are, they can loosen up over time.  Also if the bass is a seventies three bolt with micro tilt then checking the tilt stud is worth doing,  too. 

[deepbass5]

OK

Well i have spent the last three days making a 1/2 scale bass out of none tone woods, well woods i personally wouldn't choose to have a bass made out of. pictures attached.  Looks quite nice but sounds stinky poo.  some of you may point out, but it has no pick up or E.Q.

So this just goes to prove If you use none Tone woods you had better concentrate on getting a good Pick up and pre-amp in the thing. otherwise ya lost. 

 

This is for my two year old grand daughter as she destroys Kiddie acoustic guitars by standing on them.

Here is the sales pitch. 

Lime body ( basswood ) to you. actually an old chopping board.

Nice English aged Oak top , from my Fathers wood collection

Pine neck, with Light flamed Oak board and matching head stock.

Padauk bridge and bone nut, left overs from a Shuker build course.

Only had three old machine heads so its a 3 string bass.

So that's it, If you want a real bass get someone who knows what he is doing and ask for some nice tone wood.

 

[Doctor J]

But they're quite commonly all used in instruments. 
 

Pine

https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Fender-American-Pro-II-Telecaster-MN-Roasted-Pine/3IYJ?origin=product-ads&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6qPq4tOo7wIVBLTtCh3s8g4eEAQYAiABEgKq5fD_BwE
 

Basswood

https://m.thomann.de/gb/ibanez_ehb1500_def.htm?o=8&search=1615480565

 

Padauk

https://m.thomann.de/gb/le_fay_herr_black_5_xs_semi_wn.htm?o=64&search=1615480614

 

Oak

https://m.thomann.de/gb/fodera_imperial_elite_5_select_beb.htm?o=32&search=1615480754

[deepbass5]

Padauk  a favorite of mine - I have to say, but thats it

 

[PlungerModerno]

1 hour ago, Doctor J said:

...Pine

https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Fender-American-Pro-II-Telecaster-MN-Roasted-Pine/3IYJ?origin=product-ads&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6qPq4tOo7wIVBLTtCh3s8g4eEAQYAiABEgKq5fD_BwE
....

 

Imagine acoustic guitars without pine and very close relatives for tops?

I think it has a few fans in solid body instruments too!

 

[Beer of the Bass]

There are very few instruments using softwood necks, even if it works for solid bodies and most acoustic stringed instruments use it for the top. So it might not be the ideal choice in that role.

[StickyDBRmf]

6 hours ago, deepbass5 said:

OK

Well i have spent the last three days making a 1/2 scale bass out of none tone woods, well woods i personally wouldn't choose to have a bass made out of. pictures attached.  Looks quite nice but sounds stinky poo.  some of you may point out, but it has no pick up or E.Q.

So this just goes to prove If you use none Tone woods you had better concentrate on getting a good Pick up and pre-amp in the thing. otherwise ya lost. 

 

This is for my two year old grand daughter as she destroys Kiddie acoustic guitars by standing on them.

Here is the sales pitch. 

Lime body ( basswood ) to you. actually an old chopping board.

Nice English aged Oak top , from my Fathers wood collection

Pine neck, with Light flamed Oak board and matching head stock.

Padauk bridge and bone nut, left overs from a Shuker build course.

Only had three old machine heads so its a 3 string bass.

So that's it, If you want a real bass get someone who knows what he is doing and ask for some nice tone wood.

 

Looks quite nice. I'd like to hear it/stand on it.

[drTStingray]

On 10 March 2021 at 11:12, Doctor J said:

In acoustic instruments the wood directly vibrates the air generating the soundwaves you hear. In a solidbody electric instrument, not quite.

So by the same analogy as for solid bodied instruments are we saying that when acoustic instruments are fitted with some form of pick up the construction plays far less of a part? If so I know that is not the case - I have heard an electrified Martin D45 and a Gibson J200 played on the same track - totally different sounds. 

Its similar with electric solid bodied instruments - different wood (even pieces of wood of the same type) resonate differently - that resonation transfers to the strings, to the pick ups. Clearly the electronics package plays a part in the final sound but then so does every other part of the system that makes up a bass guitar.  

I wonder whether one of these plywood bodied basses would keep up with, say a traditional ash or alder bodied one at stadium gig volume? 

Edited March 12, 2021 by drTStingray

[Doctor J]

No, not the same analogy for solidbody instruments, that is the entire point.

[mikel]

16 hours ago, deepbass5 said:

OK

Well i have spent the last three days making a 1/2 scale bass out of none tone woods, well woods i personally wouldn't choose to have a bass made out of. pictures attached.  Looks quite nice but sounds stinky poo.  some of you may point out, but it has no pick up or E.Q.

So this just goes to prove If you use none Tone woods you had better concentrate on getting a good Pick up and pre-amp in the thing. otherwise ya lost. 

 

This is for my two year old grand daughter as she destroys Kiddie acoustic guitars by standing on them.

Here is the sales pitch. 

Lime body ( basswood ) to you. actually an old chopping board.

Nice English aged Oak top , from my Fathers wood collection

Pine neck, with Light flamed Oak board and matching head stock.

Padauk bridge and bone nut, left overs from a Shuker build course.

Only had three old machine heads so its a 3 string bass.

So that's it, If you want a real bass get someone who knows what he is doing and ask for some nice tone wood.

 

If you want an acoustic bass I would agree 100% I believe we have established that. For a solid body electric bass with pups and control's the wood is of little importance other than cosmetic.

[Dan Dare]

6 hours ago, drTStingray said:

So by the same analogy as for solid bodied instruments are we saying that when acoustic instruments are fitted with some form of pick up the construction plays far less of a part? If so I know that is not the case - I have heard an electrified Martin D45 and a Gibson J200 played on the same track - totally different sounds. 

Its similar with electric solid bodied instruments - different wood (even pieces of wood of the same type) resonate differently - that resonation transfers to the strings, to the pick ups. Clearly the electronics package plays a part in the final sound but then so does every other part of the system that makes up a bass guitar.  

I wonder whether one of these plywood bodied basses would keep up with, say a traditional ash or alder bodied one at stadium gig volume? 

Were the Gibson and Martin equipped with magnetic or piezo pickups? Piezos pick up the vibration and convert it into a minute electrical signal. Therefore the resonance of the instrument will affect the amplified sound. Magnetics sense the movement of a string in a magnetic field. The resonance of the instrument has little to no effect on that.

I have a 1975 Martin D35. It has the Martin piezo bridge pickup installed. Fabulous guitar, but difficult to amplify because it is so resonant and powerful acoustically that controlling overtones and feedback is a real issue. I get better plugged in results with my cheap Yamaha, because it has a neutral and much less characterful sound acoustically.

"Stadium gig volume" is a product of the PA system, not the instrument.