The tone of the Reverse P: when is it a Good Thing? when is it not?

[PlungerModerno]

2 minutes ago, LeftyJ said:

The pickup positions Leo Fender chose are actually very carefully thought out, they're exactly at harmonic knots of the open strings. They don't call it the sweet spot for nothing 

https://youtu.be/4o36OqL-JO4

 

Thanks for reminding me of this.

[Munurmunuh]

28 minutes ago, PlungerModerno said:

The split P was a cheaper way to get a hum-cancelling pickup than two four string sized coils

I think I've read that not having the patent on the humbucker was the cause

[Doctor J]

30 minutes ago, PlungerModerno said:I think the single coil P bass was always about mass production, keeping it simple. The split P was a cheaper way to get a hum-cancelling pickup than two four string sized coils.

Yeah, he didn't have to pay Gibson for borrowing their patented humbucker design 😉

[PlungerModerno]

24 minutes ago, Ricky Rioli said:

I think I've read that not having the patent on the humbucker was the cause

Ah. That makes more sense. The split P is more fiddly to assemble and set up quickly on a production floor and there are other downsides (more complex shape to route etc.).

[4000]

3 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

Shall I try an experiment... I have a Warwick SSI that has what we are calling the 'reverse' P and I have the same model (a ltd 5th Anniversary bass) but with the standard non-reverse P pup (I'll measure the leading edge).  Point of note is that for some reason Warwick decided to slightly angle the pups... maybe they knew it would through up debates in years to come.    

Only problem is that though the two models are Streamers they aren't the same bass nor will they have the same strings, hence all things aren't really equal in a test. 

  

That Seafoam (or is it Surf?).......me want!

Edited February 20, 2021 by 4000

[Cuzzie]

21 minutes ago, PlungerModerno said:

Ah. That makes more sense. The split P is more fiddly to assemble and set up quickly on a production floor and there are other downsides (more complex shape to route etc.).

Once you have a template - it will be no more fiddly really to rout (obviously machines do it now) and popping and wiring one in won’t be much more hassle either

[PlungerModerno]

20 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Once you have a template - it will be no more fiddly really to rout (obviously machines do it now) and popping and wiring one in won’t be much more hassle either

True, certainly not enough more fiddly to pay for the extra feet of copper wire and the extra poles in each pickup. I suspect one of the upsides of the brass plate was less broken solder joints when assembling on the clock!

Check this out for a flipped & reversible P pickup, in the bridge position no less!!!

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by PlungerModerno
Found a thread that might be very relevant, link added.

[pete.young]

4 hours ago, Doctor J said:

I don't have a Fender P, the closest I have is an old Japanese Yamaha BB1100S. Other traditional P types are a Bass Collection SB311 and an Ibanez SB900. Measuring the distance from the 19th fret to the leading edge of the pickup, we find:

 

From what I could find digging around, it looks like the Fender P has the leading edge of the E-A coil positioned round 12.5cm from the 19th fret, which would put the D-G coil at around 15.5cm back. Someone be a dear and measure, if you have one. It would be interesting to see if Fender themselves are consistent across USA, Japanese and Mexican models.

Anyway, looking at the reverse P types to hand we see this:

Some more data points for you

Fender CIJ Precision PB70US E-A 12.4cm D-G 15.2cm

Yamaha BB800 reverse P D-G 12cm E-A 15 cm - with a gap of about 3mm between the two halves

[funkle]

Thanks @PlungerModerno for linking to my thread. My investigations are obviously ongoing, lol. 

Reverse P sounds quite different to me at the bridge position. I tried it ‘usual orientation’ there first and did not like what it did to the D/G strings. So I had to modify. 

Reverse P sounds quite different to me at neck position as well, though my goal for the project bass I’m working on is currently to keep the ‘usual’ orientation at the neck position. 

In have other PJ basses I have taken detailed measurements from in that thread as well. I am reasonably convinced that pickup positioning is absolutely critical, in addition to the orientation, pickup type, etc. 

[CameronJ]

5 hours ago, Ricky Rioli said:

You're right, but it isn't at the right price point for ebony

Sire are doing it consistently for sub-£500!

[shoulderpet]

7 hours ago, Doctor J said:

It's actually the other way around. The two coils are wired in series, which gives the P its mid-honkiness. Series wiring emphasises the low mids. The reason P basses work so well is that they're not overly low-end heavy. They tend to cut through because the emphasis isn't on low end or high.

I would say this is generally true but there are some exceptions, the Seymour Duncan Spb-1 is scooped in the mids and there tone chart (B5 M4 T5)

[Cuzzie]

6 minutes ago, shoulderpet said:

I would say this is generally true but there are some exceptions, the Seymour Duncan Spb-1 is scooped in the mids and there tone chart (B5 M4 T5)

APB-1 one as well - its really useful what they do alongside their pickups to give you a flavour of if it is your thing

[Doctor J]

Ok, then. Let's say that, unless the pickup has been specifically designed otherwise, running two coils in series generally emphasises the low mids and this is the recognisable trait of the average P bass 😉

[bnt]

My HB MP-4 Enhanced has a reverse P: I like the look, not expecting it to be a major factor in sonic terms. Since the bass side is closer to the bridge, I expect it to be slightly less bassy, and the converse for the treble side. So perhaps a little less tonal range. I've posted about the stock Roswell PM-4 before, how it's a steamroller that flattens everything else, so such subtleties are likely lost on it. I have some EMGs on the way in a couple of weeks, though, so maybe I'll hear something once they're on.

[mybass]

23 hours ago, LeftyJ said:

The pickup positions Leo Fender chose are actually very carefully thought out, they're exactly at harmonic knots of the open strings. They don't call it the sweet spot for nothing 

Yes, the sweet spot may well be where the pups were originally placed. I became more interested so looked at Fender’s website, not much there to be found but moving on this was found.....beware, takes a while to read through!

http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/

[bloke_zero]

@funkle posted this:

Gives you *all* the positions (except the W double p)

[Munurmunuh]

16 minutes ago, bloke_zero said:

@funkle posted this:

Gives you *all* the positions (except the W double p)

I remember that video....and remember finding it odd that he didn't specify whether the P and Reverse P were series or parallel, since he gave that info for all the others.

In the picked rounds section (6'39") the Reverse gives a slightly tighter more focused sound, which I guess is exactly as you would expect?

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Ricky Rioli

[bloke_zero]

27 minutes ago, Ricky Rioli said:

In the picked rounds section (6'39") the Reverse gives a slightly tighter more focused sound, which I guess is exactly as you would expect?

I agree - yeah, it's weird he doesn't mention that, but I guess the main thing I took away was what an enourmous difference position plays.  I have a bass with a MM/P combo and the P is an inch closer to the neck than standard and you can hear it has a different tone - boomier and more hollow.

[Jack]

The strat, tele, p and a few other Fenders all seem like they're done wrong* to me. If anything I'd want a slightly thinner response on the heavier strings and a little more tub from the higher strings. Reverse p should be standard surely? 

 

*Not that any of this seems to have hindered the last ~70 years of music. 

[Munurmunuh]

12 hours ago, Jack said:

The strat, tele, p and a few other Fenders all seem like they're done wrong* to me. If anything I'd want a slightly thinner response on the heavier strings and a little more tub from the higher strings. Reverse p should be standard surely? 

 

*Not that any of this seems to have hindered the last ~70 years of music. 

I would like to hear a BB1200, say, strung with flats and played through a mid-to-late 50s Fender Bassman. 

(PS As for the Strats and Teles....if only Leo Fender had thought of the humbucker before Gibson patented it )

Edited February 23, 2021 by Ricky Rioli

[bloke_zero]

12 hours ago, Jack said:

Reverse p should be standard surely? 

I always liked the reverse P Eagle:

https://reverb.com/item/6192883-b-c-rich-eagle-bass

I even like the body shape - feels more california whimsical than metal.

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by bloke_zero
Added video

[acidbass]

To my ears, the reverse P sounds better in every situation.  It just makes more sense from a physics/engineering perspective.

[Jack]

11 hours ago, Ricky Rioli said:

I would like to hear a BB1200, say, strung with flats and played through a mid-to-late 50s Fender Bassman. 

Have you played the Mark Hoppus bass? It's great as-is, would probably be very old-school with a more vintage-voiced pickup. I think one of the bass bashes a few years ago did a blind (like, someone was playing behind a curtain) 'what's the best p-bass sound' shootout and the Hoppus won by quite some margin. IIRC the EA is in the 'right' place, with the DG being flipped to being closer to the neck. He's a pick player and he wanted more room. Much like the Fieldy signature Ibanez, they're FANTASTIC basses that transcend the artist that endorses them.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Jack

[Doctor J]

With that one, it looks like the E-A coil is in the traditional Fender spot and the D-G coil is much closer to the neck than the usual reversed P. Anyone got one and measuring tape?

[Munurmunuh]

4 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

With that one, it looks like the E-A coil is in the traditional Fender spot and the D-G coil is much closer to the neck than the usual reversed P. Anyone got one and measuring tape?

Stolen from TB