1 x 15 & 2 x 10 in a stack, will there be issues?

[pbasspecial 386]

4 hours ago, Muzz said:

That's a useful pic - I have a Super Twin and a Compact, and yes, I've stacked them on a couple of occasions, but pretty much only for the Stacktastic look of the thing (oh, and the volume/head-height of the Super Twin - eeeeek!), but never really noticed any tonal issues...then again I was on big stages, DI'd and monitored, too. The Super Twin alone will go loud enough for any gig I'm gonna do, and for smaller gigs I have a Rumble 100 with a 'proper' Eminence 12 in it that's really quite startling on the size/weight/volume ratios, so the Compact is falling between stools...I might sell the Super Twin and the Compact and just get two Super Compacts - the added height would make them easier to hear on smaller stages...

When I stacked my 2 super compacts I did it horizontally rather than vertically as it felt more stable that way (and looked better IMHO). However I know Alex might disagree because of some fangled acoustic thingy me jig but I paid for them so there. 😀

[BigRedX 2,844]

1 hour ago, pbasspecial said:

When I stacked my 2 super compacts I did it horizontally rather than vertically as it felt more stable that way (and looked better IMHO). However I know Alex might disagree because of some fangled acoustic thingy me jig but I paid for them so there. 😀

Again, it only matters your rig is supplying the FoH bass sound.

Having the drivers next to each other rather than directly above each other will lead to dispersion issues, where the audience will only get to hear what you are hearing if they are stood directly in front of the rig. Everywhere else it will be different in terms of tone and volume.

Actually stacking the drivers vertically still leads to dispersion issues, but as they are all in the vertical plane it will only be noticeable if you are playing a venue with multiple levels at very different heights.

[agedhorse 308]

7 hours ago, BigRedX said:

To the OP. Is the bass also going through the PA when you gig?

If so, it doesn't matter what you have on stage as it will just be for personal monitoring.

However, if you rely on your rig to make the bass audible to the audience, mixing speaker types without using a crossover will result in an inconsistent sound in different parts of the venue. 

In practice it MAY cause issues IF the cabinets were not designed with similar acoustic properties. This means sensitivity, power balance, phase response, complementary voicing, etc.

The issues of acoustic summing occurs regardless of similarity of the speakers, it relates to identical speakers also, based on the number of point sources and the distance between the sources. Then there is the (usually) greater issue of boundary conditions, how the reflections within the room combine and the frequencies that each boundary act on (and at what level).

The myth of only combining identical speakers without the considerations of all underlying  factors that affect the summed response needs to be put to bed rather than be perpetuated. 

 

[Killed_by_Death 304]

 

Again, it's no myth that you get better efficiency if all the drivers are the same.

Mixing drivers & different brands has unpredictable results.

 

 

 

[Stub Mandrel 10,265]

13 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

That actually was valid when 10s went higher than 15s and 15s went lower than 10s, with 12s in between the two. That would have been for the most part before 1980. It may seem odd that so many bass players are still going by what was true 30 or more years ago, but not when you consider that a guitar player could be perfectly happy with a guitar and amp from 1959.

While what Bill says is perfectly true about modern speakers being much better at covering a wide frequency range, it's also worth noting that now bassists have access to a much wider range of tone shaping options on amps, pedals and via active basses.

25+ years ago it was an unwritten rule that bass players used 1x15 or 4x10 cabs. 12" speakers were for guitarists... some people thought I was really weird for using two 2x12 cabs, of course that would be perfectly normal now. Some bands I joined questioned whether or not they would do the job (until they heard them).

Ironically I now have my dream 4x10 combo on top of a 1x15 cab as well, but it is as yet ungigged just practiced with, my only gigs since coming back to the fold have used supplied backline  or only needed my 150W head on a single 2x12  :-)

[agedhorse 308]

51 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

Again, it's no myth that you get better efficiency if all the drivers are the same.

Mixing drivers & different brands has unpredictable results.

 

 

 

Yes, it is a myth when the speakers are designed with this in mind (and have the engineering/math to back it up).

None of the efficiency equations contain any variables related to the size of the driver.

Mixing drivers CAN be problematic, but it doesn't have to be problematic and in fact can provide the (knowledgeable, skilled) designer the ability to develop a range of voicings that is not possible (or practical) with a single driver.

[Killed_by_Death 304]

2 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

it is a myth when the speakers are designed with this in mind

That's an awfully big WHEN, which usually would not apply. It would only be applicable if the cabinets are of the same brand AND designed in such a way.

99% of the time when people want to mix, it's not the case.

 

[JapanAxe 472]

14 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

That actually was valid when 10s went higher than 15s and 15s went lower than 10s, with 12s in between the two. That would have been for the most part before 1980. It may seem odd that so many bass players are still going by what was true 30 or more years ago, but not when you consider that a guitar player could be perfectly happy with a guitar and amp from 1959.

I hadn’t considered that Bill - my live playing experience started somewhat later than 1980!

[Stub Mandrel 10,265]

It's worth considering that adding a second, different, cab can improve the overall sound if the original cab is not quite up to scratch.

In practice, 'suck it and see' is perfectly rational approach if this doesn't demand risking a lot of money.

[skankdelvar 13,385]

The issue of horizontal dispersion is well known but few dwell upon the very particular problem associated with vertical dispersion rigs, namely, that in order to hear what the bass player is hearing the audience has to be the same height as said bass player.

Should the bass player be - let us say - six feet tall and be performing on a stage three feet high - the audience members would have to be nine feet tall. If the band is a glam rock tribute and the bass player is wearing period-correct platform shoes then we can add another three or four inches to that. 

Of course, no audience is going to be exactly and uniformly nine foot three inches tall. Some audience members will be shorter and others will be taller. 

Some might suggest that this is a trivial issue. Not so. The last time I gigged a vertical dispersion rig I was accosted afterwards by two very angry and very short gentlemen. Tempers flared, a brawl ensued and that's how I died.

Edited February 2 by skankdelvar

[EBS_freak 4,922]

36 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

The issue of horizontal dispersion is well known but few dwell upon the very particular problem associated with vertical dispersion rigs, namely, that in order to hear what the bass player is hearing the audience has to be the same height as said bass player.

Should the bass player be - let us say - six feet tall and be performing on a stage three feet high - the audience members would have to be nine feet tall. If the band is a glam rock tribute and the bass player is wearing period-correct platform shoes then we can add another three or four inches to that. 

Of course, no audience is going to be exactly and uniformly nine foot three inches tall. Some audience members will be shorter and others will be taller. 

Some might suggest that this is a trivial issue. Not so. The last time I gigged a vertical dispersion rig I was accosted afterwards by two very angry and very short gentlemen. Tempers flared, a brawl ensued and that's how I died.

You are missing the point. This is EXACTLY why the raked stage was invented... so the sound from the cabs is actually angled down towards the audience whilst giving the audience a clearer view of everything that is happening on stage. FACT.

 

It's true. It's even more true if I put FACT at the end.

[agedhorse 308]

7 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

You are missing the point. This is EXACTLY why the raked stage was invented... so the sound from the cabs is actually angled down towards the audience whilst giving the audience a clearer view of everything that is happening on stage. FACT.

 

It's true. It's even more true if I put FACT at the end.

It also allowed for the blood to pool at the front, sparing much backstage inconvenience

[Killed_by_Death 304]

 

The Spoonerism in me is thinking about the Staked Rage I witnessed at lunch today, LOL!

 

 

[Chienmortbb 685]

2 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Yes, it is a myth when the speakers are designed with this in mind (and have the engineering/math to back it up).

None of the efficiency equations contain any variables related to the size of the driver.

Mixing drivers CAN be problematic, but it doesn't have to be problematic and in fact can provide the (knowledgeable, skilled) designer the ability to develop a range of voicings that is not possible (or practical) with a single driver.

As usual all true but to sum up, it's a crap shoot unless you know what you are doing (and players do not).

Edited February 2 by Chienmortbb

[JapanAxe 472]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It's worth considering that adding a second, different, cab can improve the overall sound if the original cab is not quite up to scratch.

In practice, 'suck it and see' is perfectly rational approach if this doesn't demand risking a lot of money.

You can then sell the original cab and get another one to match the second, different cab.

[EBS_freak 4,922]

32 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

It also allowed for the blood to pool at the front, sparing much backstage inconvenience

FACT!

[Bill Fitzmaurice 884]

4 hours ago, JapanAxe said:

I hadn’t considered that Bill - my live playing experience started somewhat later than 1980!

When I started playing in '65 there were no real bass tens, and very few real bass twelves. The original '69 SVT was loaded with guitar tens. That's why you needed two of them to handle the 300w head without farting out. In those days it wasn't easy to get what you wanted from one cab, or from two loaded with the same drivers, thus the practice of mixing began. But that hasn't been the case for a long time. Sure, there are still cabs that don't sound good, but you don't address that problem by mixing. You address it by getting rid of a cab that doesn't sound good by itself and getting one that does. Not loud enough? Get two.

[Killed_by_Death 304]

 

When I was trying to find a rig for both bass & guitar, I found the response curves weren't all that different, & it surprised me a lot that even guitar drivers have a steep roll-off on the high frequencies.

So, what is the difference besides the xMax?

 

 

[agedhorse 308]

2 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

As usual all true but to sum up, it's a crap shoot unless you know what you are doing (and players do not).

It's not a crap shoot because there are manufacturers who do know what they are doing, and have a well established track record of doing so without issues.

[LukeFRC 2,105]

5 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

When I was trying to find a rig for both bass & guitar, I found the response curves weren't all that different, & it surprised me a lot that even guitar drivers have a steep roll-off on the high frequencies.

So, what is the difference besides the xMax?

 

 

Heft?

 

[LukeFRC 2,105]

that was a joke BTW. 

 

[Killed_by_Death 304]

1 minute ago, agedhorse said:

It's not a crap shoot because there are manufacturers who do know what they are doing, and have a well established track record of doing so without issues.

Is there a particular cabinet SET or SETs made my Mesa that are Engineered to work together?

Commenting strictly to ones that are not identical, of course.

 

[agedhorse 308]

7 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

When I was trying to find a rig for both bass & guitar, I found the response curves weren't all that different, & it surprised me a lot that even guitar drivers have a steep roll-off on the high frequencies.

So, what is the difference besides the xMax?

 

 

There are a LOT of differences, including just about every parameter that applies to compliance, resonance, moving mass and then there's the design differences that account for cone (and suspension) break-up. 

Generally, the frequency that the high frequency rolloff occurs is quite a bit higher than with a bass speaker, and HOW it rolls off is different too.

Edited February 2 by agedhorse

[agedhorse 308]

Just now, Killed_by_Death said:

Is there a particular cabinet SET or SETs made my Mesa that are Engineered to work together?

Commenting strictly to ones that are not identical, of course.

 

Everything within the Subway line is (of course).

 

[LukeFRC 2,105]

2 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

There are a LOT of differences, including just about every parameter that applies to compliance, resonance, moving mass and then there's the design differences that account for cone (and suspension) break-up. 

Generally, the frequency that the high frequency rolloff occurs is quite a bit higher than with a bass speaker, and HOW it rolls off is different too.

is that a polite way of saying "everything" @agedhorse?

Edited February 2 by LukeFRC