New EBMM Stingray Special Colours and Prices

[drTStingray]

I don't think you'll find this is going to be unique to EBMM - it might sound like I'm being patronising but it's so easy for us to forget there's a global pandemic. It is affecting production the world over.

So it appears there are shortages of musical instruments in the US and everywhere else. Also it's not limited to that - my son is into buying guitar effects pedals and tells me he has bought one direct from a US manufacturer - not only is it cheaper even after the carriage/duties but he'll get it 5 months quicker than through someone like Andertons. It's not limited to effects - lots of stuff like parts (valves for instance), unless they're in stock are quoted in months rather than days.

So look out folks - I suppose the fact we (or a lot of us) are sat at home either working or not and most certainly not performing music or playing other than at home should be a warning signal all is not well - and hasn't been for nearly a year. 

Is it not a bit presumptuous and unrealistic to expect the supply chain for this sort of thing (which could hardly be considered a key industry - especially when users can't actually use the stuff properly) not to be affected and possibly for the problem not to continue to deepen  - like everything else I think it will be a long while before 'normal service' or anything approaching it will be resumed. This is not just an EBMM thing although that has manifested itself in prices and availability from the Andertons site (availability in the US will, of course, also be affected - in fact the general shortage of instruments in the US was being highlighted on You Tube channels many months ago - I think I saw an example of a Taylor guitar (for demo) given). It's an industry-wide issue (as you would expect in a long running global pandemic). 

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by drTStingray

[Kev]

If everyone else follows suit with such ludicrous price increases, it’ll be a very interesting time for the market indeed.  Fortunately just seems to be EBMM for the moment (unless someone has seen these kinds of increases elsewhere?) but it often takes one to take the lead on things line this. 
 

As someone said, Far East basses may be the only affordable things left.

[drTStingray]

Even if prices don't increase (and I would guess they will) it looks like supply will be difficult anyway - I presume the Far East is also affected to some level by all the factors - I know I've seen stories of export difficulties (other industries) owing to shipping problems. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by drTStingray

[Kiwi]

7 hours ago, Eldon Tyrell said:

Finally some feedback from Thomann (after a friendly reminder). They mentioned that there will be fewer basses available with longer delivery times and higher prices. Well, looks like we are all in the same (EU-UK) boat. Looks like my theory is correct, EBMM is throttling international distribution and protecting its domestic market. Fair enough but I am definitely out now 😒

I checked with Lee Anderton and he said the same thing about reducing production but he didn't know about US vs International proportions.  So it looks like I was right,  EB are relying on their cult of fanboy retired dentists and lawyers to prop them up. 

2 hours ago, Kev said:

As someone said, Far East basses may be the only affordable things left.

I'd like to think it might suck up some of the hot air of hype that circulates generally amongst the top brands.  If there's any market that could do with a reset,  it's the guitar and bass market. Especially since the recession. 

[drTStingray]

1 hour ago, Kiwi said:

So it looks like I was right,  EB are relying on their cult of fanboy retired dentists and lawyers to prop them up. 

This is the sort of stereotyping which gets bass forums like this a bad name amongst musicians. I referred to it earlier in the thread - it seems to something which afflicts some bass guitar forum members. I haven't a clue where people get these notions about who buys what or why - why do you feel the need to stereotype people who happen to like a certain make of instrument in a mocking, semi disrespectful way? In my case and quite a number of other people I know your suggestion is 100% inaccurate. But hey ho you now know so won't have to be inaccurate again! 

I think you'll find the reduced production has not been singled out purely for the UK, reduced supply (across much of the musical instrument and accessories industry) is a fact of life - it's a global thing. Prices will change accordingly - the Far East is not immune from Covid and other factors either. 

While you were talking to Lee it would have been interesting to know why his shop is charging £200 more for a BFR Stingray than another shop in the UK was..... raking in the profit would be my guess 😏

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by drTStingray

[Kiwi]

2 hours ago, drTStingray said:

This is the sort of stereotyping which gets bass forums like this a bad name amongst musicians. I referred to it earlier in the thread - it seems to something

I haven't a clue where people get these notions about who buys what or why

Relax man, it's just an opinion. But it's not stereotyping, it's a generalisation with the purpose of making a point about notions of affordability and value in the boutique market. 

Also check out the interview with Kyle Kim of Sire basses, there is a common perception about who the boutique market is aimed at and it's not working musicians. 

In regards to EB, it's in context of shared experiences of the bizarre world that is the EB forum. 

[LukeFRC]

1 hour ago, Kiwi said:

Also check out the interview with Kyle Kim of Sire basses,

Where? Have you got a link? That sounds interesting 

[LukeFRC]

8 hours ago, drTStingray said:

 

I don't think you'll find this is going to be unique to EBMM - it might sound like I'm being patronising but it's so easy for us to forget there's a global pandemic. It is affecting production the world over.

 

What does seem to be unique is EBMM deciding to tie their supply problems with a seemingly disproportionate price hike for the EU&UK markets. 
so that might have meant that their margins are squeezed and they have to rise prices- So the smaller as a percentage rise the US market is seeing would show that. For us in the UK/EU it might have meant that shipping prices have increased a bit (I think they have) but then we would expect to see similar price increases for every instrument imported. Which we don’t seem to have. 
so, I don’t want to be patronising, either there is a supply problem at EBMM in which case increases in price should be proportional  in US and U.K. OR there is an increase in shipping costs in which case we will see similar increases in Fender, Gibson, Yamaha et al (of interest To most forum members) OR  EBMM are using this as an opportunity to move their products into a different market segments - Treating them as a Veblen goods.

 

It can’t be the first, and if a giant like Thomann are following suit it’s unlikely to be the second so to me it seems obvious it’s the last.

which is fine, it’s their product they can do what they like- what about that being the case do you find so contentious? 

[FDC484950]

It is only early February, I wonder whether much if any guitars and basses have been imported by shops this year? I’ve been in the market for basses over the last few months, and in that time the stock at pretty much every retailer I can think of in the UK has hardly changed at all. Andertons, GG, GAK, PMT etc all seem to have dwindling stocks and very little new stock. So perhaps @drTStingray is correct in that we haven’t seen any other price rises yet because the goods haven’t been shipped?
We shouldn’t underestimate the global shipping crisis at the moment either, it’s likely to significantly affect anything from outside the EU into the UK in both very extended lead times and significant cost. Perhaps EB have put prices up in part based on how much they expect the costs are increasing. I’d expect the Far East has even more problems given the amount of freight coming for other goods and the limited supply (e.g. the chip crisis caused by Coronavirus limiting electronics and even car output). For example I notice Andertons has a ton of Sire basses for sale but virtually none of them are in stock, and several say 3 months or more.
And finally, whilst in way justifying the price hike, if you look around, instrument prices are creeping up and are likely to continue rising more steeply at the higher end. Sadowsky’s MetroLine made in Germany are effectively cheaper versions of the NYC model, but are bang on current MM pricing. It’s not that long ago I can remember a nice Metro going for sub-£2K. Fender prices have been static for the last year or two but expect a std US P bass to hit £2K pretty soon - now that would be nuts!

Edited February 6, 2021 by FDC484950
Typo

[tegs07]

Certainly generated some heated discussion in this thread!
I suspect supply and distribution issues are at the heart of the price increase. There may be a bit of the “Apple Tax” as well... when a brand has a devoted following they are willing and able to pay more.

The similarities with Rickenbacker have been made... personally I think they are a bit bling and overpriced but would still love a 4001 same with Land Rover Defenders. Just because they cost a fortune and a shed load of them go nowhere near a field and are driven by City types doesn’t detract from the fact they are fantastic vehicles.

[Kiwi]

1 hour ago, LukeFRC said:

Where? Have you got a link? That sounds interesting 

 

 

[Aidan63]

Fender have announced price increases too I believe; as stated there is a worldwide demand outstripping supply issue with components and instruments which are feeding through the system, hence prices rise.

Post pandemic there will likely be a glut of used instruments on the market and as the industry ramps back into full production it will be interesting to see the pricing, but as we know from experience prices rarely go down, and some manufacturers (Maybe EBMM - how many basses do they actually make a year a few 1000 possibly) will just restrict product and keep prices high if they are selling what they can make at a profit, especially if they have highly visible brand ambassadors/endorsees able to create demand for that product. MusicMan aren't trying to compete with Fender or Yamaha, just maintain a brand with high perceived value that sits well with the primary string business and adds to the whole business's worth I think.

Hopefully there will be some great new music and a more diverse and vibrant and dynamic live music scene too, post pandemic, fingers crossed

[LukeFRC]

38 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

The similarities with Rickenbacker have been made... personally I think they are a bit bling and overpriced but would still love a 4001 same with Land Rover Defenders. Just because they cost a fortune and a shed load of them go nowhere near a field and are driven by City types doesn’t detract from the fact they are fantastic vehicles.

I have no idea if there is an equivalent GAS but I want this https://www.lego.com/en-gb/product/land-rover-defender-42110

[martthebass]

I think a number of ‘lockdown’ pastimes have been hit by supply and demand issues on equipment. During lockdown I got more interested in astrophography and found long wait times on many items, particularly those from SE Asia. One sad aspect was that used pricing in some cases was exceeding new pricing. However new pricing has remained stable so no problems if you’re prepared to wait.

What is sad in the EBMM case is that either EBMM, the distributors and the retailers (or a combination thereof) seem to be profiting from the current situation. People have long memories on this sort of stuff.

[Dapper Bandit]

These new EBMMs seem to be very expensive outside of the US now, this much is true.

That being said, they have always been a bit pricier than Fender as I believe that a core principle of the company is to pay decent wage to staff based in a "developed" nation ie: not peanuts. This affects RRP massively. This has benefits such as an impressive level of QC (I have seen maybe a handful of clunkers from EB compared to, say Fender or Gibson). You can get a Sire/Cort/Ibanez for a lot less because they are built in Indonesia/Korea/China where lower standards of living are leveraged against the final selling price. If budget is the primary concern, then a full fat EB - brand new - is probably not going to be a box that gets checked. 

Also, cost of international freight has risen enormously. A company I deal with (in an unrelated sector, admittedly) has recently increased their prices significantly as a result of a 600-1000% increase in shipping costs! Could EB's increase in cost reflect this earlier than a larger corporation due to a smaller/quicker production process, perhaps?

 

Finally, while I'm not offended at all I do find the dentist/lawyer remark confusing. I thought all those guys played PRS and Gibson? Can't see many of those guys jamming the obligatory Dream Theater albums that come packaged with every new musicman!

[Eldon Tyrell]

Finally got a quote from Thomann for the Stingray Special 2021, 4 HH, Raspberry Burst:  3399€

Well, at least we know for sure now that the price increase is not a UK only phenomenon 😉 

Will be interesting to see how EBMM's pricing will look like after the pandemic. Prices rarely go down but are there really enough customers who are willing to pay almost £3k for a Stingray? I doubt it but we'll see.

If I were EBMM, I would tell customers in a nice online statement and/or YT video what is going on, why we are seeing these high prices etc. I think it is better to be transparent and some people may even get won over by the arguments presented. Without it, people just fill the void with their own theories, like we are doing here, some theories will be close to reality, some maybe not so much.

[drTStingray]

10 hours ago, Kiwi said:

In regards to EB, it's in context of shared experiences of the bizarre world that is the EB forum. 

I presume you must have been threatened with tooth pulling or legal action resulting from extolling the virtue of aftermarket preamps, pick ups and other extraneous "improvement" to stock basses - on the manufacturer's forum - the word cult is also used by people in a derogatory context it seems as it usually means a bunch of people following what the mainstream might consider bizarre, illegal or distasteful principles. Musicman basses have been mainstream since the mid 70s - in fact many people migrated to them in the late 70s from Fender when they'd got bored with their 1950s inspired and somewhat average products - bass guitar had become a thing in its own right rather than a better amplified double bass (which frankly fretted Fender basses were always pretty hopeless at in the 60s say compared with the 60s Brit pop bass of choice EB2 and Rivoli - those using Fenders in the Uk early on did so to emulate US heroes like Buddy Holly or to match guitarists so doing). So this means it's a mainstream cult - hmmm very odd indeed. 🙄🤔

Many guitars are sold to retired blokes many of whom can't even play - however they're more likely to buy a Strat or Les Paul as that's what they saw heroes playing - basses are of a far lower order in comparison - I would doubt there is near the level of hero worship amongst retired people for any bass guitarist (maybe excepting Paul McC) to generate that (apart from actual fans of bass or bass players). 

4 hours ago, Eldon Tyrell said:

Finally got a quote from Thomann for the Stingray Special 2021, 4 HH, Raspberry Burst:  3399€

Well, at least we know for sure now that the price increase is not a UK only phenomenon 😉 

Will be interesting to see how EBMM's pricing will look like after the pandemic. Prices rarely go down but are there really enough customers who are willing to pay almost £3k for a Stingray? I doubt it but we'll see.

If I were EBMM, I would tell customers in a nice online statement and/or YT video what is going on, why we are seeing these high prices etc. I think it is better to be transparent and some people may even get won over by the arguments presented. Without it, people just fill the void with their own theories, like we are doing here, some theories will be close to reality, some maybe not so much.

That's interesting - thanks for getting that -  as I say watch out - I think it highly unlikely this will be the last manufacturer to bump up prices. If I didn't already have my Stingray Specials I might pay slightly less (with discount) for one of the 2021 models - hell im thinking of buying a Wal for upwards of £7k!!! 

Musicman publicised reduced output a while ago caused by Covid when they explained what is happening with the Stingray Classic basses. The ratio of guitars to bass sold has also reversed over the years - the proportion is majorly in favour of guitars - thus further restricting bass supply - if want to see economically what happens to prices with reduced supply look at fuel - those of us who drive can see immediately what happens when supply (in that case often manipulated by producer organisations) varies. 

I also think retailers have an impact - it is the case Andertons are selling the exact same spec of high end special edition Musicman bass for 10% more than one of their competitors. At £3k that is a big difference. 

But ultimately it's supply shortage through Covid/ shipping issues that are driving this IMHO - not a tirade of profiteering against non US bass players by Musicman or anyone else in the supply chain - that would be a conspiracy theory in its own right 😏

[FDC484950]

4 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

The ratio of guitars to bass sold has also reversed over the years - the proportion is majorly in favour of guitars - thus further restricting bass supply

Interestingly I saw something in their site (or an interview) that said the John Petrucci guitar was the 2nd best selling guitar on sale. Not sure whether they meant worldwide, or at what price point, but started me thinking just how many basses they manufacture even in a normal year, given the string business was/is EB’s bread and butter. If turnover is only $26M p/a then it’s probably in the very low thousands. It does point to a decrease in bass sales over time.