Out my depth - Vox fretless.

[Raslee]

So, I’ve been doing up a very battered Vox White Shadow Fretless I oddly acquired. Have fitted some Sandberg elecs as the originals were shot - I had a spare set and pre and that works a treat. The main problem I am having is the setup. Please help a novice who’s lost!
The action is really quite high, think double bass, at the nut end. Yet low at the dusty end (nearest the pick up), and when I fret any string above the 7th fret area it buzzes madly on the fretboard, mainly catching around 17th to the end of the neck. The truss rod turns but is maxed out and the bridge saddles are as low as they’ll go. I’ve tried slacking the truss and that just equals mega high action. 

Help? Knackered neck ? 

[Jimothey]

Have you checked the neck for straightness with a notched ruler (I made my own with a cheap 600mm steel ruler notched to fit over the frets) if that seems to be nice and straight then maybe try a neck shim to bring the front of the neck pocket up a tad then that should equal up the string spacing....... 👍🏻 

[Raslee]

Just now, Jimothey said:

Have you checked the neck for straightness with a notched ruler (I made my own with a cheap 600mm steel ruler notched to fit over the frets) if that seems to be nice and straight then maybe try a neck shim to bring the front of the neck pocket up a tad then that should equal up the string spacing....... 👍🏻 

Cheers mate. I’d been researching a bit and seems the neck was probably warped, big bow in the middle - so gave the truss a tweak more tight....and it’s just snapped - game over 😩

[Raslee]

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, Jimothey said:

Have you checked the neck for straightness with a notched ruler (I made my own with a cheap 600mm steel ruler notched to fit over the frets) if that seems to be nice and straight then maybe try a neck shim to bring the front of the neck pocket up a tad then that should equal up the string spacing....... 👍🏻 

Good advice. If the but will drop out, try putting a capo between the tuners and where the nut was ( to keep the strings aligned) and seeing how it plays, nut on a FL needs to be cut much lower, strings are pretty much on the board in my two

[Beedster]

1 minute ago, Raslee said:

Oh

[Jimothey]

4 minutes ago, Raslee said:

Cheers mate. I’d been researching a bit and seems the neck was probably warped, big bow in the middle - so gave the truss a tweak more tight....and it’s just snapped - game over 😩

Sorry to hear that mate! Is it worth trying to remove the fretboard and replacing the truss rod?

[SpondonBassed]

2 hours ago, Raslee said:

Cheers mate. I’d been researching a bit and seems the neck was probably warped, big bow in the middle - so gave the truss a tweak more tight....and it’s just snapped - game over 😩

Sorry to hear.  Don't bin it though.

 

[HazBeen]

You can remove the fretboard, see my 5 string or @Andyjr1515 Wal neck build thread for info, then replace the trussrod and stick on a new fretboard. Very satisfying job to do and not super complex.

[SpondonBassed]

5 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

You can remove the fretboard, see my 5 string or @Andyjr1515 Wal neck build thread for info, then replace the trussrod and stick on a new fretboard. Very satisfying job to do and not super complex.

That or donate it to me.  I'm going through a bit of a Frankenbass phase just now.

Heeheehee

[Andyjr1515]

2 hours ago, HazBeen said:

You can remove the fretboard, see my 5 string or @Andyjr1515 Wal neck build thread for info, then replace the trussrod and stick on a new fretboard. Very satisfying job to do and not super complex.

Actually - if you are lucky, you may not need to replace the fretboard (although there's always a risk).  Not a DIY job, though

  I'll send you a PM

[Andyjr1515]

Hi, @Raslee     PM'd

[Raslee]

Thanks for the support and reply guys. I'm going to send the neck on to Andy for a bit of first aid

[Andyjr1515]

@Raslee has sent me the neck - and what a nice neck it is 

But yes - it does have issues.

As @Raslee says above, the truss rod is broken, but as he also mentions, there is a significant bow set in the neck.  And there's a bit more - the fretboard is actually coming away from the neck.  You can see both the bow and the separation here:

I suspect that the trussrod, trying manfully to counteract the above bow plus the extra bow from the string tension, finally started to pop the board off.

 

So far, though, there doesn't seem to be anything unfixable.  First job is therefore taking off the fretboard and having a look at what's going on under there...

 

[MoonBassAlpha]

At least you've got a head start on getting this one off!

[Andyjr1515]

To get the fretboard off, I am going to use four things: a travel iron; a single-edged razor blade; a very thin steel sheet; a LOT of patience!

It can take approaching a couple of hours because, in order to avoid damaging the fretboard or neck jointing surfaces, you have to get the glue REALLY hot so it properly melts - and some glues melt more easily than others.

So the iron is on hot and took around 20 minutes just sitting on this area... :

...until I could get a razor cleanly between the two parts:

This first stage takes the longest.  I need to ensure that the blade will go in through the whole area before I can then insert my steel sheet and move the iron on a few inches.  I use the steel sheet to stop the still soft glue from simply regluing behind me as I move slowly along:

Then it really is just a case of inching everything a few mm at a time along.  Rushing can easily end in tears

But eventually, here it is.  Fretboard off and both faces and all four edges undamaged:

Next is removal of the packing strip to be able to remove the truss rod:

 

The neck is most definitely bowed - around 5mm at the centre - and the trick of just bending it back is probably just not going to be sufficient.  I'm thinking maybe a couple of carbon rods either side of the replacement truss rod, but we'll see.  However, the less our solution is fighting against the wood the better.  So I cleaned the glue off the top face of the neck and thoroughly soaked this side:

This is make this face expand and therefore temporarily start straightening the neck.  But I need to make that a more permanent effect.

So, with either end packed a couple of mm to add a teeny amount of back bow, it is now clamped firmly to the bench and will stay there at least overnight until it is dry. 

Then it will be at least flat enough to assess whether it needs more than just a replacement trussrod... 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Andyjr1515

[Raslee]

My mind is totally blown...lovely to see after a long day at work. Excellent works @Andyjr1515

[Andyjr1515]

OK - so far so good.

I took off the clamps and the bow has reduced considerably:

This is around 1mm at the centre - yesterday it was over 5mm.

I'm going to leave it 24 hours at room temperature and then check it again to see if there is a tendency for it to bow more.  If so, then I think it will need a couple of carbon rods either side of the rod.  But if it holds this set, then I think that is something that the new rod alone would be able to manage - it takes no effort to close the above gap to flat. 

 

In the meantime, I will order the replacement truss rod.   The 6mm wide slot would suit a modern two-way rod just fine - although the bottom of the slot, curved to use with a single action rod, will need to be packed to give it a reasonably even depth. 

That said, because they work in a different way, I think a modern rod would put less stress on the neck (and the rod).

  

[SpondonBassed]

42 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

I took off the clamps and the bow has reduced considerably:

 

It looks like you've transferred the bow to the dining table.  Mrs 1515 will be displeased.

[Paul S]

Fabulous stuff, Andy.

[Si600]

58 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

It looks like you've transferred the bow to the dining table.  Mrs 1515 will be displeased.

I have a feeling that Mrs 1515 has kind of given up and is just resigned to sawdust everywhere. 

[Andyjr1515]

1 hour ago, Si600 said:

I have a feeling that Mrs 1515 has kind of given up and is just resigned to sawdust everywhere. 

Resigned...maybe.  Given up...never 

[BassTool]

Brilliant pics and how to - as usual 😉 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👍🏼

[HazBeen]

Great work @Andyjr1515. I would add the carbon fiber regardless. It is not hugely expensive and it will pretty much do away with any risk of the bow returning.

My 2 pennies.

And you can use your router again  

[Andyjr1515]

Just now, HazBeen said:

And you can use your router again

Yes - and what could possibly go wrong there! 

But yes, I'm inclined to agree.