What to put on top of a stained body (matron!!)

[oldslapper]

Firstly apologies if this has been asked a multitude of times. Please feel free to tut and place the link in a reply 😉

So I’m staining an unfinished body with water based stain. 
Any advise on what to put on top of that? Would rather avoid the aerosol lacquer sanding repeat x 10 avenue, as I don’t really have an area to do that in. But if that’s my only option then I’ll have to rethink.

Many thanks for your help. John 

[Andyjr1515]

Hi John

What kind of final finish are you looking for?  Matt, Satin, Gloss?  And are you happy seeing the grain in the finish or are you aiming for new car flatness?

There are lots of 'spare room' options.

[oldslapper]

40 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Hi John

What kind of final finish are you looking for?  Matt, Satin, Gloss?  And are you happy seeing the grain in the finish or are you aiming for new car flatness?

There are lots of 'spare room' options.

Thanks Andy, not worried really. Hoping that the grain/stain can be seen, so I guess something to seal the wood? 
🍻 

[Andyjr1515]

One of the easiest - and a big favourite for many of us builders - is Birchwood-Casey Tru-oil

It's easy to apply, it is pretty non-toxic and it smells vaguely of cricket bats (it's a polymerised Linseed oil based product).  You can brush it on, or wipe it on with a lintless cloth and some even just use their fingers (although personally I would recommend surgical /mechanics thin rubber gloves to do that).

It is also (it does smell a bit, though) perfectly possible to do on a (covered) dining table.  Generally you can do at least one whole coat in a day (I do back and sides in the morning and top and sides in the evening).

The first few coats will generally soak into the timber and - as you say - seal it.  Additional coats start building a thickness (although it remains pretty thin once dry) and eventually a shine.  It is difficult to get a full gloss with it, but a pretty decent low-gloss is perfectly achievable.

There are various tips and tricks but that's what I would recommend for starters.

(Oh - and a small 3fl oz bottle is PLENTY)

Edited December 13, 2020 by Andyjr1515

[oldslapper]

Nice one Andy. Appreciate your advice. John

[Cuzzie]

Agreed with the above, if you like the look of the wood stain use something like Tru-Oil.

I used Gun Oil (for wooden gun butts) which is essentially the same thing and is on Amazon.

First 2-3 coats I used it diluted with mineral spirits (white spirit) and used a fine sand great wet sandpaper piece to help push it into the cracks of the wood - you can probably get about 3 coats done in a day adding in drying time.

After that I used fingers to push it in and depending on how Matt or shiny you want it will depend on how many coats you do.

I have used nitro spray cans over stained wood, but that was because I wanted to relic the finish back to reveal ‘aged’ wood.

If the body you are using is an open pore one like Ash you can consider a grain filler and there are tinted ones available.

Go to Rothko and Frost (Dartfords) and IMHO they have the best finish stuff available across the board, they are lovely to talk to as well - you’ll find a combo of things you’ll like

[oldslapper]

Cheers Cuzzie 👍🏻

[Andyjr1515]

I think you said that the body was going to be stained, @oldslapper ?

If that is the case - while I fully endorse what @Cuzzie says, and especially thinning the oil a touch for the initial sealing coats - I would make a small but important change to the sequence.

What @Cuzzie describes in terms of applying the initial coats with sandpaper is exactly the best way for unstained wood.  It basically creates a slurry of oil and fine sawdust that acts as a perfect grain-fill/surface preparation that will eventually lead to a wonderfully organic silky smooth satin finish and a perfect base finish if you wanted to build up to a gloss.

However, for stained wood, while using sandpaper is still done (I actually use very fine wet and dry c 1000-2000 grit), it is best not to use that for those initial coats. 

Stains - and especially water-based stains - are surprisingly thin.  They do no penetrate the wood much at all.  And if the surface is slurried at this first stage, the stain will certainly be sanded off in places.

 

So - and I emphasise this is only for a stained finish - I would just change the sequence a touch.  What I do is:

- apply the sealing coats.  Thinning is a great suggestion to get the oil properly into the wood.

-  I then apply 2-3 further coats (making sure they are dry between each coat)

- and then I apply the next coat using 1000+ grit wet and dry, where the wet is oil, and gently apply the coat with the paper in a smooth gentle movement - pretty much as @Cuzzie describes.  The same thing happens, but now the slurry is a mixture of hardened oil mixed with fresh oil rather than oil and sawdust.  I check the paper regularly to ensure that minimal stain is coming off in the oil - if it is then let it dry and put a couple more coats on before repeating this process.

 

For unstained, I do pretty much exactly what @Cuzzie suggests 

 

 

 

[Cuzzie]

As ever far more eloquent than me - I was furiously typing whilst having a sleepy breakfast before being late for work!

Looks like all eventualities will be covered for you

[oldslapper]

🐄 🥛 

milking your expertise even further..

the body I’m experimenting on is a cheap one, so I can practice on. I’ve come across this problem:

I’m assuming the 2 pieces are joined with some glue that is preventing penetration? It’s the same on the front. Any tips? 
thanks

John 

[Andyjr1515]

Just now, oldslapper said:

🐄 🥛 

milking your expertise even further..

the body I’m experimenting on is a cheap one, so I can practice on. I’ve come across this problem:

I’m assuming the 2 pieces are joined with some glue that is preventing penetration? It’s the same on the front. Any tips? 
thanks

John 

You probably need to sand further down.  Glue (or previous finish preparation residue if it's stripped) doesn't soak in a lot - but it is surprising how much you have to sand down to get rid of it.

So it's a sanding block with something like 80 grit (60 is too coarse) sanded with the grain until a wipe over with a damp cloth reveals no light patches - lighter patches usually designate the areas where the dampness isn't soaking into the wood and flags probable contamination still there (because almost all woods darken when they absorb moisture). 

Then - after letting it dry again, sand out the sanding marks with the progression of, say, 120, 180, 240 grit before staining again.  The stain should then soak into all of the wood leaving just the teeny glue line which will hardly show (other than clearly being a join line   )

[Cuzzie]

Yep as above - really sand it bare - I often sand up past even 600 - or higher until I get bored 

[Jabba_the_gut]

Possibly even try a cabinet scraper

[oldslapper]

11 minutes ago, Jabba_the_gut said:

Possibly even try a cabinet scraper

I wouldn’t touch this government with a barge pole......

Oh hold on, sorry. Thanks Jabba 😊

[Jabba_the_gut]

I've also use an acrylic lacquer by Chestnut once before which has the benefit of being water based, can be applied with a brush or sponge and is non-smelly. 

Also, if you are joining two parts of a body yourself it can be worth putting masking tape along the joint length to stop excess glue going on the surface you plan on staining. 

I seem to remember some glues being better than others in terms of showing up under stains (I stay clear of Resin W - much prefer Cascamite or Titebond - just my preference).

Edited December 14, 2020 by Jabba_the_gut

[Cuzzie]

Yes for cabinet scraper and for titebond from me

[Andyjr1515]

2 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Yes for cabinet scraper and for titebond from me

 seconded thirded

[oldslapper]

I had originally thought of using Crimson guitars water based lacquer after looking at their website. But thought I’d check here first. Just looked up cabinet scraper on YouTube. Looks ideal. 

[Cuzzie]

Across stains, nitro, fillers etc I have used various makes

My fave is Rothko and Frost for quality, the others are not bad, R&F just nip it

[oldslapper]

So after a bit of elbow grease with sand paper and diluting the existing stain a bit, I’m now thinking of perhaps making it a feature with a slow fade from bare to rich stain, or definitive bare stripe. I have no time scale with this, so can be done and redone and then burnt along with any ideas of further guitar fettling 😂
 

[oldslapper]

[PaulThePlug]

Makes it look 'Busy'... I'd go with the 'All Over'

Its not as if its a different strip of wood or grain down the middle.

What does the front look like? and is a fair bit covered by a Scratch Plate, twin large pickups and a big-ish bridge?

Edited December 15, 2020 by PaulThePlug

[oldslapper]

Gone for the all over as I think your right Paul, bit “busy”. The back has come out well, but front still not behaving perfectly. So tomorrow will get scraping. 
Pick-guard on or off?

If off, then the front cavity will look daft with the skinny pup in there. 
Maybe a soap bar in there? Or is there such a thing as a surround one can buy?

Neck not attached yet, just for demo.

Edited December 15, 2020 by oldslapper

[Andyjr1515]

I like the colour!

Wiping over with a damp cloth (squeezed out - not wet) will darken the dried stain and give you a pretty good guide to what shade it will be once you've added the finish.

 

[Jabba_the_gut]

I like it with the scratch plate though I would change it for pearlescent one to match the blocks. Looks nice!