Stingray set-up: Do I adjust truss-rod or saddles first?

[BadHands]

Hey everyone,

Recently came into position of a Stingray (It's gorgeous and I'll be posting pics soon!) and I've been researching how to set it up - I've been on the Ernie Ball site and read their specs and EVERY resource I've seen says to begin by checking neck relief via the string tension method and adjusting the truss rod, HOWEVER when looking at the saddles today I noticed they're almost as high as they can go. Should I lower them to their mid-point of travel (So they can mover either way) before adjusting the truss rod, or will this not make a difference?

Obviously a string under tension wont change and neck relief should be the same regardless, I just want confirmation that I'm ok to crack on as I've never adjusted a truss-rod before and I don't want anything to go wrong. 
Thanks in advance!

Mallett

[Beedster]

Hello mate, frankly, whilst it's not technically correct, I would always adjust the saddles first, simply because a) the action responds immediately (which isn't the case with the neck) and it's therefore easily put back and b) there's less chance of something going catastrophically wrong!

There's also no such thing as the perfect relief/height combination, so whilst it might not work for others, you might find the combination that works best for you with relatively little experimentation. I like dead straight neck and quite high action, other people pick up my basses and say "how do you play it like this....?" Horses and courses

Good luck

[gary mac]

Unlike Beedster, I do the truss rod adjustments first, followed by the saddles. Well actually, I tend to check the nut slots first, then neck relief, then saddles.

[Chiliwailer]

Lol, unlike both above I do truss, saddle and then nut. 

Doing the truss first stops you having to readjust the saddles. The nut last means you can have a second way to gauge how much you need to file (by pushing down the string at the 1st fret and seeing the ‘drop’ of the string). 

Each to their own of course 😃

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

It doesn’t matter what the saddles are doing. To check the relief, you take the saddles out of the equation anyway. Capo first fret, fret the string where it joins the body and measure the gap between string and fret around midway. Adjust accordingly.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

14 hours ago, csmallett said:

Hey everyone,

Recently came into position of a Stingray (It's gorgeous and I'll be posting pics soon!) and I've been researching how to set it up - I've been on the Ernie Ball site and read their specs and EVERY resource I've seen says to begin by checking neck relief via the string tension method and adjusting the truss rod, HOWEVER when looking at the saddles today I noticed they're almost as high as they can go. Should I lower them to their mid-point of travel (So they can mover either way) before adjusting the truss rod, or will this not make a difference?

Obviously a string under tension wont change and neck relief should be the same regardless, I just want confirmation that I'm ok to crack on as I've never adjusted a truss-rod before and I don't want anything to go wrong. 
Thanks in advance!

Mallett

If you can bear any more video content, watch these. Jason explains the order of doing things and why.

https://www.fodera.com/how-to-set-up-your-fodera/

[Beedster]

OP says saddles are as high as they can go but no mention of relief issues, why would anyone start with truss rod in that situation? Might just be that previous owner, like me, mikes saddles high? 

[Chiliwailer]

9 minutes ago, Beedster said:

OP says saddles are as high as they can go but no mention of relief issues, why would anyone start with truss rod in that situation? Might just be that previous owner, like me, mikes saddles high? 

Perhaps only in extreme cases where the rod is too tight. At least with the rod set, you’ll know if you need to shim the neck - though that can be fairly obvious anyway...

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

OP says saddles are as high as they can go but no mention of relief issues, why would anyone start with truss rod in that situation? Might just be that previous owner, like me, mikes saddles high? 

Does the OP say that there are no issues with the rod? Given that it takes two seconds to check it and you don’t even need a capo, I don’t know why you wouldn’t do it first. It’s the most intrusive adjustment out of the three (rod/string height/intonation). Or is this thread JUST about lowering saddles?

[Beedster]

47 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

Does the OP say that there are no issues with the rod? Given that it takes two seconds to check it and you don’t even need a capo, I don’t know why you wouldn’t do it first. It’s the most intrusive adjustment out of the three (rod/string height/intonation). Or is this thread JUST about lowering saddles?

No, but the O/P does says the saddles are as high as they can go, so I doubt he can even think about checking the relief until he's adjusted those down. And if he does so, he might just find the bass plays to his liking?

[Beedster]

2 hours ago, Chiliwailer said:

Perhaps only in extreme cases where the rod is too tight. At least with the rod set, you’ll know if you need to shim the neck - though that can be fairly obvious anyway...

Agreed Dan, but should't the process be to start with the obvious issue, saddles, and work from there, as opposed to starting with one that is not obvious. OK saddles might be so high because the rod is too tight, but if it's not visibly the case, that's an assumption? 

[Beedster]

17 hours ago, csmallett said:

I just want confirmation that I'm ok to crack on as I've never adjusted a truss-rod before and I don't want anything to go wrong. 

This is also a good reason to start with the saddles

All joking aside, if it's a used bass, the OP hasn't adjusted the relief before, if there is a problem with the truss rod this is perhaps not the way or time to find out. Check if the action is OK my moving the saddles, and if not either take the bass to a tech or see if there's a local BCer who knows their stuff who might be able to check it out. I've had two basses arrive - both bought on BC by the way - with dodgy truss rods that only emerged when I changed the strings and needed to change relief. If the rod is in any way dodgy, the OP trying to resolve that might not only make things worse but give the seller reason to say 'no way, you broke it'

Or am I just a bit obsessed

[warwickhunt]

I think if you have experience (ie Beedster), you get a 'feel' for what needs doing and don't always follow one route. 

During Lockdown I've bought 4 basses (I put the Lockdown bit in to justify the purchases) and none arrived ready to go for me.  I literally pick a bass up and look at it, plonk a few notes and can pretty much gauge if I need to adjust saddles, truss rod or even the nut (the last one being rarely).  I then set about doing the most obvious and then fettle it in increments from there.  Rarely does a bass just need either/or truss rod/bridge adjustment when it comes to getting an instrument to play how you like.

I'm with Beedster that a bass maxxed out on the saddles and too high to comfortably play (for the new owner) would be a case of bringing them down to a mid point... though I sometimes adjust to the point they are almost flat on the board and go from there and then seeing how things 'feel'! 

On the point of 'feel' I've never used a feeler gauge or other measuring device in 40 years of playing/setting up basses.  Early days I used to pay to have a bass set up and I can appreciate that sometimes the pro's need to have points of reference especially if they don't know a customer.  However, once I sussed what a set up is all about, I just started tweaking and fettling to my heart's content.  

[chris_b]

18 hours ago, csmallett said:

Hey everyone,

Recently came into position of a Stingray (It's gorgeous and I'll be posting pics soon!) and I've been researching how to set it up - I've been on the Ernie Ball site and read their specs and EVERY resource I've seen says to begin by checking neck relief via the string tension method and adjusting the truss rod, HOWEVER when looking at the saddles today I noticed they're almost as high as they can go. Should I lower them to their mid-point of travel (So they can mover either way) before adjusting the truss rod, or will this not make a difference?

Obviously a string under tension wont change and neck relief should be the same regardless, I just want confirmation that I'm ok to crack on as I've never adjusted a truss-rod before and I don't want anything to go wrong. 

Mallett

What problem are you trying to resolve?

Don’t change anything until you know what is wrong. 
 

It isn’t problem to have the saddles maxed out. If the previous guy played like a gorilla then that’s OK. If you play like a gorilla, it’s OK. If the neck is bowed adjust the truss road, if the action is too high adjust the saddles, but you don’t indicate there is a problem.

[Chiliwailer]

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

Agreed Dan, but should't the process be to start with the obvious issue, saddles, and work from there, as opposed to starting with one that is not obvious. OK saddles might be so high because the rod is too tight, but if it's not visibly the case, that's an assumption? 

I’m an old dog Chris - I always start with the rod so I know where I’m at  🤣

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

12 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

I think if you have experience (ie Beedster).....

I’m sorry, do you know me then?

Beedster, you, me, anyone can pick up a bass and in five seconds know whether the rod needs adjusting with no tools. Explain to me why you wouldn’t want to know that before making any physical adjustment? 

Reading between the lines, if that bass was on my bench, I would be thinking there is a reason the saddles are SO high. The OP says they are right at the top of the saddle screws which I would suggest is slightly unusual. My guess, rather than actually making any sort of adjustment, is that neck relief MAY be an issue and the previous owner has just raised the saddles to eliminate fret buzz rather than dealing with it properly i.e. adjusting the relief.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

4 minutes ago, Chiliwailer said:

I’m an old dog Chris - I always start with the rod so I know where I’m at  🤣

I had an excellent teacher 😉

[warwickhunt]

15 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

I’m sorry, do you know me then?

Beedster, you, me, anyone can pick up a bass and in five seconds know whether the rod needs adjusting with no tools. Explain to me why you wouldn’t want to know that before making any physical adjustment? 

Reading between the lines, if that bass was on my bench, I would be thinking there is a reason the saddles are SO high. The OP says they are right at the top of the saddle screws which I would suggest is slightly unusual. My guess, rather than actually making any sort of adjustment, is that neck relief MAY be an issue and the previous owner has just raised the saddles to eliminate fret buzz rather than dealing with it properly i.e. adjusting the relief.

Correct, I don't know you but I do know Chris.    

What you've said 'is' my point and we are saying the same things.  If someone with experience were to pick up a bass they'd know within 5 seconds what probably needs adjusting and/or if there is an issue that might come to light. 

I was basing my comments on the assumption that the OP isn't that experienced and lots of info/opinions re. adjusting truss rods possibly isn't the first course of action for a newbie.  It's far too easy to dive straight into truss rod adjustments BUT that is the one thing that can go badly wrong.  The user could be unfamiliar and adjust the wrong way (as you know not all rods are installed righty/tighty but most advice/tutorials will tell you to adjust thus), use the wrong sized allen key/screwdriver (hopefully not the latter on the former but I've seen it done) etc and it could exacerbate an issue.  

Conversely, starting with a nice easy adjustment on the bridge MIGHT take the action to where the OP wants to be. 

I likewise agree with your comment that there MAY be an issue somewhere, hence the bridge adjustment first (IF you don't have much experience).

We'll get there in the end. 

[BadHands]

Thanks for all the information guys! There's a twist in the tale..

After taking the flats off that came on it, I put my usual gauge (45-105) on and the action is INCREDIBLY low, even with the saddles at their maxed out height, so I'm assuming this has been done to make up for the fact the neck needs relief. 

The low E string is buzzing a little, so I'll let the neck settle for a couple of hours with the new gauge and check the relief as per the Ernie Ball website. If I'm feeling brave I'll adjust it then.

[Beedster]

26 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

Reading between the lines, if that bass was on my bench, I would be thinking there is a reason the saddles are SO high. The OP says they are right at the top of the saddle screws which I would suggest is slightly unusual. My guess, rather than actually making any sort of adjustment, is that neck relief MAY be an issue and the previous owner has just raised the saddles to eliminate fret buzz rather than dealing with it properly i.e. adjusting the relief.

Hey mate, I totally agree, there is possibly an issue with the relief that explains the high saddles, but given the OP hasn't adjusted a truss rod before, and might not recognise the warning signs that us old dogs would (tension, ominous creaking........), I would take down the saddles first, and that will answer the question either way. It's not prescription, it's diagnosis, but whilst it might mean that the diagnosis is negative relief, requiring a specific prescription, it might also be sufficient to make further prescription unnecessary? 

Might have got a bit medical there

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, csmallett said:

Thanks for all the information guys! There's a twist in the tale..

After taking the flats off that came on it, I put my usual gauge (45-105) on and the action is INCREDIBLY low, even with the saddles at their maxed out height, so I'm assuming this has been done to make up for the fact the neck needs relief. 

The low E string is buzzing a little, so I'll let the neck settle for a couple of hours with the new gauge and check the relief as per the Ernie Ball website. If I'm feeling brave I'll adjust it then.

Might be worth checking whether the neck has been shimmed? People do funny things with basses

[warwickhunt]

6 minutes ago, csmallett said:

The low E string is buzzing a little, so I'll let the neck settle for a couple of hours with the new gauge and check the relief as per the Ernie Ball website. If I'm feeling brave I'll adjust it then.

Good call to let it settle.  Not all necks respond straight away and being a natural material, wood needs to find its own way and different cuts/timbers/constructions do it at different rates.  MM necks are pretty consistent and good quality so hopefully it'll not be an issue.  

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

9 minutes ago, csmallett said:

Thanks for all the information guys! There's a twist in the tale..

After taking the flats off that came on it, I put my usual gauge (45-105) on and the action is INCREDIBLY low, even with the saddles at their maxed out height, so I'm assuming this has been done to make up for the fact the neck needs relief. 

The low E string is buzzing a little, so I'll let the neck settle for a couple of hours with the new gauge and check the relief as per the Ernie Ball website. If I'm feeling brave I'll adjust it then.

Yeah, let it settle and go back to it. Completely different strings/tensions. Where are you based?

[BadHands]

7 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Might be worth checking whether the neck has been shimmed? People do funny things with basses

Ah, don't give me another variable to worry about!  No obvious sign of shimming at the neck joint though. 

1 minute ago, warwickhunt said:

Good call to let it settle.  Not all necks respond straight away and being a natural material, wood needs to find its own way and different cuts/timbers/constructions do it at different rates.  MM necks are pretty consistent and good quality so hopefully it'll not be an issue.  

 

1 minute ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

Yeah, let it settle and go back to it. Completely different strings/tensions. Where are you based?

Thanks guys; I'd much rather be over cautious than risk any damage. 
I'm in Stafford. Bit of a drive but I might get a quote for a set-up from PMT in Birmingham; I figure at least if anything goes wrong I'm protected by a big-box music shop. 

[Bigguy2017]

Sounds like you need to shim the neck to get the saddles at about half height. Truss rod won't do this.

I've had some old Stingrays where a factory (?) shim has pressed itself flush in to the body over time.

Pop the neck off and have a look, try a playing card shim at the head end of the neck pocket.