Joined a Big Band on bass.. getting a good sound?

[Caz]

Bit excited.. After doing some depping on bass with some local big bands, I've finally joined a big band as the main bassist. I figured it's a good way to improve at bass as you get so many different styles thrown at you. So I asked for some charts in advance and learned them, and got quite roasted at reading some new ones.. have brought the pad home to work on.

The main thing I'm having difficulty with is finding a good sound and volume. I'm more used to playing acoustic instruments (drums & percussion) where the sound carries quite far, and the sound seems to travel really differently coming out the bass amp. We're rehearsing in a big wooden town hall and some of the tunes are really loud. It seems really loud to me next to the bass amp but others (even the drummer who was about 2m away) were struggling to hear it so I think the sound trails off quite quickly when it comes out the amp. I cranked up the volume until the drummer was happy.. he's a good and experienced drummer so I definitely trust his judgement. 

So just wondering, when you're right next to a bass amp and the volume is just really loud , and it can sound totally different even 2m away - how have people learned to gauge what it sounds like around the room to set it so it's not too loud or too quiet? And any tips on setting sound in this environment to cut through well?

Thanks,

Caroline

[bass_dinger]

That sounds like a great gig! Congratulations. 

 

I have found it helpful to place the amp (or rather, the speaker cabinet, if your have separate units), about 6 to 10 feet away from myself, and to have it pointing at my head. 

The problem seems to be that, with the speaker cabinet close by, the sound is directed at my own legs and bottom, in which I do not have any ears. Thus, what I hear is different to what everyone else hears.

I have heard tell that the sound is best heard at a distance greater than the length of the sound wave - but others with more experience, and more science, will be able to confirm.

I have had great success in experimented with cab placement - most recently, 9 inches away from the wall, and at a 20 degree angle.  When it was parallel  to the wall, the sound was loud and boomy.  20 degrees, and it was lovely.  

Get a long cable, and walk around your cab as you play - my SWR Workingman's' 12 is louder out of the side of the cab, than out of the front, if you are 6 feet away from it. 

You might also experiment with EQ - again, others will be able to suggest the right setting.

I also found that my original 30 watt Laney amp, which was really loud indoors and in rehearsals, quickly ran out of puff when the rest of the band and the congregation kicked in.  So, I upgraded to the SWR, which works much better in the same venue.  Even better is an Ashdown Electric Blue 180.  The latter feels effortlessly muscular, and deliciously rich.
 

[Richard R]

I can't offer useful advice, but it does sound like a fantastic gig. Congratulations 👏 👏 

[Nail Soup]

Sounds like a great opportunity, and I don't have any expertise to offer I'm afriad.

But one idea does come to mind...... how about using two amps..... one as a monitor pointing to the band (maybe at the front pointing backwards) and one pointing at the audience?

Would be interseting to see if any of the more experienced basschatters could comment on that.

[Dad3353]

For sound-checks, without a dedicated sound engineer, using a wireless system comes to the fore. Recommended in these pages before, the Smooth Hound system may be worth a look..? This gives you the freedom to potter off to other parts of the stage and/or hall and set the levels and EQ to suit. The other tips above ^^ are worth paying attention to, too.
Well done on getting a valuable spot in a big band. Have fun with it. 

[dave moffat]

Congratulations what a great opportunity.

[Matt P]

i'll agree with everything that has been said already (especially the use of a wireless so you can wander around and see how you sound in different areas as suggested by @Dad3353)

a quick click of the link in your Bio shows me that you are playing a fender Precision which is a great starting point, but what amp are you using? also the EQ settings can have a huge difference in how audible you are in a room, i find that a bit of a boost in the mids helps to keep me audible.

It sounds like a fantastic opportunity and i'm slightly envious as i've not played in a band since the lockdown was enforced.

Matt

[fleabag]

Maybe just  get yourself a powered monitor that's good for the low end, assuming you have a band PA

[dave_bass5]

2 hours ago, Caz said:

So just wondering, when you're right next to a bass amp and the volume is just really loud , and it can sound totally different even 2m away - how have people learned to gauge what it sounds like around the room to set it so it's not too loud or too quiet? And any tips on setting sound in this environment to cut through well?

Thanks,

Caroline

if the room is boomy, or the stage/playing area is boomy, you will need to lower some of the mids. This would allow you to turn up louder and still be heard without swamping everyone with low end.  Sometimes we think we arent loud enough, but its more an EQ thing.

Definitely worth getting a long lead, or better still a wireless system so you can go out front and see how it all sounds. id also suggest a decent EQ pedal to give more scope for fine tuning.

[Drax]

Echoing much of the above. I’ve found amp placement key when playing with lots of other wind / brass. Gigs you play you’ll be one of the few powered by electricity, often no PA (making some assumptions on the scale of your new gig, assuming not Lincoln centre  ) 

Helps to be able walk into punter space to during soundcheck, wireless or long cable. 

With bass amp on stage as the sole sound source it’s pretty claustrophobic playing right in front of / next to. Ideally I place this as far from me as possible. 

Nice one getting the gig. Nothing sharpens your reading like a big band gig! 

[Staggering on]

Great gig, I played in a big band and loved it, lucky you.

Pretty much agree with most of the advice given in other posts, it is a common problem in bands like this. I would suggest that you might get a better result if the amp is raised up off the floor on a stand or even a chair or something else to get the sound coming out at the same height as other players in the band, it made a difference for me. 

It also depends on what sort of sound the band leader wants to hear, some want a dull thud and others want to actually hear the note so playing with your EQ as others have suggested is a good idea. Are you using flats on your bass, that's what I was using and getting EQ just right is important.

Good luck, sounds like fun!

 

[la bam]

As above, wireless really helps, but also talking to your drummer. If its loud to you and he is struggling to hear, try angling towards him (or others) and see what they think.

Also, and this sounds daft, but everyone has done it before, make sure your not stood directly infront of your speaker (like inches away) blocking all the sound from coming out. Humans make excellent sound blockers!

Failing that, eq is king. Itll take some time to work out what's what, but I'd be tempted to ignore the 'bass' end of things and concentrate on finding the 'mid' spaces. I imagine big brass sections etc really fill the low end. Dont compete, find your own space and take it from there.

Good luck.

[Beedster]

5 minutes ago, la bam said:

Failing that, eq is king. Itll take some time to work out what's what, but I'd be tempted to ignore the 'bass' end of things and concentrate on finding the 'mid' spaces. I imagine big brass sections etc really fill the low end. Dont compete, find your own space and take it from there.

This is very good advice 

[bassace]

Wishing you great joy with the big band. Lucky you, those gigs are not easy to come by. Placement: if at all possible I try to get myself  between the piano - hear the chords - and the drums. Usually the drummer will like to hear the bass and you can work the rhythm together. It won’t hurt at all if you ask him if he is happy with your volume, or tell him to feel free to say whether you are too quiet/too loud. That way you’ll get your volume about right after a few rehearsals. I’ve spent a lifetime sucking up to the drummer and mostly it works very well.

Otherwise, yes, bring out the mids, tame the bottom end and elevate the cab, but not too much. 

Enjoy!

[fretmeister]

I'm currently in a Big Band (if we ever get back together again).

My rig varies a bit depending on how I feel but it's often a Precision bass into a small head and a pair of Barefaced One10 cabs. 

I find the sort of secret is to cut the bass quite a lot to remove boom and have some gentle compression going on.  I reduce the bass at about 65hz and 180Hz but sometimes boost a little at the 500hz sort of range. Then I adjust the Tone control on the bass quite a lot depending on the tune. If we're playing Van Morrison's "Moondance" then I knock the tone back loads and play gently and get a nice fat sound with hardly any highs.

If it's "Uptown Funk" then the tone is all the way up again and I play more aggressively. The higher aggression and the increase in treble changes the tone quite a lot but the compression keeps it all at similar volumes. It's just that the EQ curve is very different and cuts through in a different way. On Moondance I want to sit under it. On Uptown I want to hammer through the middle. And I pick a mid point for something like "Zoot Suit Riot" - But the volume is about the same.

 

The biggest challenge seems to be getting out of the way of the trombones. Noisy sods! That's why I cut the bass quite a lot and boost the mids a little. I like a little bit of grit in my tone too - adds to the harmonic thickness but also isn't obvious in the mix. It's not a great sound when played alone, but it sits with the rest very well.

 

As for hearing my amp - to be honest I listen to the drums more than my own amp and if it sounds right at sound check then I'm ok with it not being perfect for me on stage. Sometimes I can't hear myself at all and I just treat it like I was playing unplugged along to a CD.

 

 

[Steve Browning]

Enjoy the Sammy Nestico arrangements!

I am going to somewhat fly in the face of most of what is said here, on the basis of an assumption (well, two). Firstly, it's a conventional big band (Count Basie for example) and that there's no pa. When I was first playing, I used to play in a youth jazz orchestra and also played in a rehearsal band (it was guys getting together to play the tunes, without ever trying to gig). The experience of being among the instruments and experiencing the whole thing in such an immersive way is quite an experience.

Now, I may well shouted down a bit here but I'll press on. What is your role here? In my view, your role is, essentially, to replicate an upright bass. The parts you are playing were written for that instrument and the sound it makes. It's not about definition, it's not about sustain. You are surrounded by instruments that are occupying a whole load of the frequencies in the mid range. The job of the bass in such a band is to provide little else but bottom end (and the right notes!!).

Personally, I would think the last thing you want is some hyper rig that is all bells and whistles. An acoustic bass has none of that.

You have a Precision. Ok, Precision, flatwound strings and a simple combo should do you fine. If you sound about right when you're playing with the band then you probably are about right. The conductor/leader will tell you if you're loud. They are not going to suggest you take your wireless out into the audience any more than Walter Page would have.l Big bands tuned up and then started.

There is no need to over-complicate a simple job. Turn up, stick your combo on the floor next to the drummer, plug in, tune up and enjoy the gig. 

[bassace]

Good stuff, Steve. Just one thing I’d like to add: a while ago I saw a young big band in Portsmouth and they had a bass guitar. And, yes, it didn’t have the sustain of the upright and sounded a bit thin. But no matter, they guy was playing all the right notes and was obviously a good reader. But he had no propulsion at all, it was all a bit lifeless. All big band bass players should realise that their equal function is to give drive to the rhythm section. Put some excitement into the music.

[FDC484950]

I played a lot in big bands when I was younger. I echo Steve’s comments above. A big band gig is not like a rock band gig. Blasphemy, I know, but you’re not really there to be heard but to be felt. That can be a challenge live as boosting bass is probably the worst thing you can do as it just adds boom. As others have said the brass section sucks up a huge range of frequencies and there’s some good advice about some mid- to upper-mid frequency boost for a bit of definition. I also agree with getting the amp off the floor and away from a corner/parallel to the wall, as many cabs are very directional, which may account for the drummer struggling to hear you. In a big band it’s likely your role will be walking fours, trading hits and on the one for the big finale. You don’t need compression, you don’t need a fancy amp or bass and you don’t need to radically change your tone (other than to cope with the acoustics in troublesome rooms). Your amp does however need headroom and the ability to cope with a “big” band! The SPL level of a brass section in full flight is scary, and partly accounts for my hearing loss...

You need to swing with that bouncing ball feel and a sound you and the band can hear (just), but more importantly, feel. Bear this in mind when you get a chart in Gb - wrong notes that swing is far better than right notes with no feel
 

[Steve Browning]

15 minutes ago, bassace said:

Good stuff, Steve. Just one thing I’d like to add: a while ago I saw a young big band in Portsmouth and they had a bass guitar. And, yes, it didn’t have the sustain of the upright and sounded a bit thin. But no matter, they guy was playing all the right notes and was obviously a good reader. But he had no propulsion at all, it was all a bit lifeless. All big band bass players should realise that their equal function is to give drive to the rhythm section. Put some excitement into the music.

Absolutely true but I would say that's more about the playing style than the presence of upper mids!

I will also add that I did somewhat used to resent some of the parts as they were obvioiusly not written by a bass player and were not what I would have chosen to play myself!!

Edited September 3, 2020 by Steve Browning

[Piers_Williamson]

Lots of good points have already been made.  On the practical side, my experience of playing electric bass in a big band is you may be given a very tight spot to play in where inevitably you can't hear yourself that well (albeit that anyone over 6 ft away might be able to hear you a lot better).  An ability to tip your amp up is good, or lift it off the floor on a milk crate. Some small combos (Hartke?) are designed to do that . However, floors (and walls) are also really good sound reinforcers.  Staging can be good or bad at reinforcing sound (depending on what you are trying to achieve in the room).  I have played a little Phil Jones combo which would be good with upright as well, as well as a 1/10 Markbass combo (louder).  the key with both is they are quick to set up and don't take a lot of space.

[bassace]

Quick to set up is very important. A big band can make a very long queue at the bar. You wouldn’t want to be left behind and nobody buys the bass player a drink. Only the drummer and he’ll still be setting up.

[fretmeister]

2 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

Absolutely true but I would say that's more about the playing style than the presence of upper mids!

I will also add that I did somewhat used to resent some of the parts as they were obvioiusly not written by a bass player and were not what I would have chosen to play myself!!

For a while my band leader was a pianist.

She had no idea what the range of the bass was. I'd often get parts that fell off the ends!

[Piers_Williamson]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

For a while my band leader was a pianist.

She had no idea what the range of the bass was. I'd often get parts that fell off the ends!

Cue the GAS for a six string.  Mind  you, that might look a little OTT!

[haruki]

Congrats on getting a big band seat.  I made a similar move  a few years ago and have not looked back.  I really like the way its improved my sight reading and general musical skills and forced me to play different types of  music.  Though some of the numbers are a bit cheesy - can you play 'Wheels' and keep a straight face?

I've actually gone from bass guitar to double bass - which has gone down well with the band - but sound wise adds another layer of problems. 

My solution to stage sound has been to be to put something close to my ear off the ground (1x10) so I can hear myself without too much feedback  and then park another speaker  somewhere nearer the front  of stage .   Its a bit clunky but seems to have worked.  Some band members are also good at letting me know if I'm too quiet ..or too loud.

[dave_bass5]

Ive never played in a big band (although i did play sax in a brass band at school) but i cant help think some people will be sitting down?

If so, and if ive read the posts correctly, raising the cab and having it loud enough that its carrying the sound to front of house might mean blasting out those whose ears will be a lot closer. 

Obviously depends on where the rig is placed of course. 

Just a thought, probably not a good one. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by dave_bass5