Amp gain.

[40hz]

Evening all,

I've tried to find a precise answer to this using the search function, but am having no luck.

My question is, why is it that on every amp I've owned, it is recommended to push the gain close to the clipping point?

Are there any benefits to this, because to my ears, it just furs up the sound and make it sound shoutier and far less defined compared to my MUCH preferred method of maxing the volume and using the gain to regulate overall volume (usually no more than a 3rd, amp power rating dependent). I've done this with all of my amps and, IMO, they sound far superior this way. Cleaner, clearer and 'wider' with better transients.

It's been the case on every amp I've used/owned, from a Little Mark 2, GK MB800, Trace Elliot GP12 SMX, Eden WTX, and particularly so on my TC BH550.

Am I weird?

 

[Woodwind]

not weird.

 

to misquote Eddie Van H , if it sounds right, it is right.

 

[Lozz196]

As well as a clever science theory which is probably more accurate, I think it could be that the majority of bassists/bass lines that we seem to like, in isolation are clanky, buzzy, driven and not very well defined. So if that’s what many like, advise to set the amp accordingly.

[skidder652003]

Isn't the gain usually the pre-amp? So it's recommended to get the signal from the bass as "hot" as possible so not to stress out the poweramp? Im sure Im talking tosh!

[Merton]

Gain is there to set a level into the preamp. There are two schools of though generally:

1. Set it as high as possible without clipping to get the best signal through preamp and into poweramp.

2. Set master volume at max and use gain as a volume control, like the OP prefers.

If you read the manuals for various manufacturers, Trace Elliot, Ashdown, Eden all fall into the first camp, GK into the second.

Personally I prefer as hot a signal as possible going into the preamp and even sued to set up my GKs like this. Just sounded better to my ears.

The potential problem with the first method is if you set the preamp gain and then mess with EQ etc, this then affects the signal and potentially introduces clipping into parts of the circuit where it's undesirable and then you have to reset the input gain. Hardly a major issue but something i suspect many people don't consider

[BassBunny]

I was talking to Dave Green at Ashdown about this very subject in relation to an Ashdown Retroglide. He advised setting master at max and controlling it with the gain.

[Merton]

4 minutes ago, BassBunny said:

I was talking to Dave Green at Ashdown about this very subject in relation to an Ashdown Retroglide. He advised setting master at max and controlling it with the gain.

Sounds sensible as it's a super-clean design so you don't want to push the preamp too hard

[PaulWarning]

my Trace has a clipping warning light, with a passive P the gain is on full and it still doesn't come on, they advise having the gain as high as you can, personally I like a bit of dirt so it suits me, if you like a clean sound use the gain as the volume control with master on full, there's no right and wrong way.

[40hz]

7 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

As well as a clever science theory which is probably more accurate, I think it could be that the majority of bassists/bass lines that we seem to like, in isolation are clanky, buzzy, driven and not very well defined. So if that’s what many like, advise to set the amp accordingly.

I suspect you might be onto something, Lozz. 

I'm, personally, the polar opposite in my tastes but it's nice to know I'm not necessarily doing it wrong!

[40hz]

1 hour ago, Merton said:

The potential problem with the first method is if you set the preamp gain and then mess with EQ etc, this then affects the signal and potentially introduces clipping into parts of the circuit where it's undesirable and then you have to reset the input gain. Hardly a major issue but something i suspect many people don't consider

You are quite right.

I am very much a 'leave the pre-amp flat' sort of Bass player, and even like that, I notice what I'd describe as a 'strangulation' of tone setting the gain that high.

Edited August 14, 2020 by 40hz

[gjones]

With old trannie amps, if you maxed the master and kept the gain low,  you would get noticeable hiss.

With class D amps the hiss is negligible when you max it, so you can keep it high and alter the gain to suit.

I do tend to keep the gain high as I can before clipping on the trannie and class D amps I own(and the master low), because there is a brightness and edge you get when the gain is high, that you don't get when the gain is low.

[Sparky Mark]

23 hours ago, gjones said:

With old trannie amps, if you maxed the master and kept the gain low,  you would get noticeable hiss.

With class D amps the hiss is negligible when you max it, so you can keep it high and alter the gain to suit.

I do tend to keep the gain high as I can before clipping on the trannie and class D amps I own(and the master low), because there is a brightness and edge you get when the gain is high, that you don't get when the gain is low.

I wonder whether latest amplifiers are simply quieter because of design improvements rather than the power amp topology? By maxing the output stage you will also be maxing the amplifier's noise floor and any other externally generated effects (mains hum and appliance noise, radio interferances, etc.) affecting the preamp. In live situations it shouldn't be a problem but as this is the worst signal to noise ratio it might not be ideal for low level recording. 

It's a mode of operation that can be employed with valve amps to get that unique power valve break up that preamp valves just don't achieve, but I'd be interested to hear from one of our amplifier designers (i.e., Agedhorse) whether maxing the output stresses the solid state power amp more than using it in the more conventional way?

[agedhorse]

If you are hearing "fur" or distortion, then you are clipping something in the preamp. Turn the gain down a bit and you will be fine.

Noise is independent of power amp topology or class. Designs (at least many) have gotten better in this regard.

[Sparky Mark]

1 hour ago, agedhorse said:

If you are hearing "fur" or distortion, then you are clipping something in the preamp. Turn the gain down a bit and you will be fine.

Noise is independent of power amp topology or class. Designs (at least many) have gotten better in this regard.

Thanks Andy. Do you think there would any difference in the longevity of a solid state amplifier used with the output control at max and volume set via the gain control verses one where the gain was set just below input clipping and volume set via the output contol?

[Japhet]

I don't think there's a right, or wrong way of doing it. It greatly depends on what sound you're after, how powerful your amp is and how hot the signal is going into the preamp to begin with. Some active basses put out very lively signals and then there's always effects pedals to take into account as well. A while back we took advice from a sound engineer on our PA setup. He suggested we max out the power amp and use gain to control levels. It was pretty much unmanageable and we went back to how we always used it previously.

[Sparky Mark]

17 minutes ago, Japhet said:

I don't think there's a right, or wrong way of doing it. It greatly depends on what sound you're after, how powerful your amp is and how hot the signal is going into the preamp to begin with. Some active basses put out very lively signals and then there's always effects pedals to take into account as well. A while back we took advice from a sound engineer on our PA setup. He suggested we max out the power amp and use gain to control levels. It was pretty much unmanageable and we went back to how we always used it previously.

I agree but I'm wondering whether one mode of operation could reduce the longevity of the amplifier more than the other?

[agedhorse]

1 hour ago, Sparky Mark said:

Thanks Andy. Do you think there would any difference in the longevity of a solid state amplifier used with the output control at max and volume set via the gain control verses one where the gain was set just below input clipping and volume set via the output contol?

Probably not.

[Nobatron]

Another consideration is if you’re using a DI out from your amp to the PA most amps send the DI after gain so having the gain low and the master high will raise the noise floor on the DI signal.

[agedhorse]

8 hours ago, Nobatron said:

Another consideration is if you’re using a DI out from your amp to the PA most amps send the DI after gain so having the gain low and the master high will raise the noise floor on the DI signal.

On most amps, this is unlikely to be much of an issue unless the gain is really low.

Also, if you take the DI pre eq, most amps pick off the signal pre gain control, so this won't be an issue at all. This could only be an issue using a post eq DI out.

Edited August 16, 2020 by agedhorse

[40hz]

7 hours ago, Japhet said:

I don't think there's a right, or wrong way of doing it. It greatly depends on what sound you're after, how powerful your amp is and how hot the signal is going into the preamp to begin with. Some active basses put out very lively signals and then there's always effects pedals to take into account as well. A while back we took advice from a sound engineer on our PA setup. He suggested we max out the power amp and use gain to control levels. It was pretty much unmanageable and we went back to how we always used it previously.

Weirdly enough my functions band had the opposite experience. We found maxing the volume on channels and adjusting overall volume using the gain control greatly reduced the feedback and cleared our stage sound up.

Edited August 15, 2020 by 40hz

[Beer of the Bass]

5 hours ago, Nobatron said:

Another consideration is if you’re using a DI out from your amp to the PA most amps send the DI after gain so having the gain low and the master high will raise the noise floor on the DI signal.

In amps where the signal path is that way, setting the gain somewhere below clipping and using the master volume for stage volume adjustment would get you a consistent and predictable level from the DI out, while maxing the master and using the gain for volume control would vary it as you adjusted stage volume.

[Nobatron]

8 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Also, if you take the DI pre eq, most amps pick off the signal pre gain control, so this won't be an issue at all. This could only be an issue using a post eq DI out.

Depends on the amp. My last 2 took the DI after the preamp.

[Hellzero]

Technically speaking putting the gain to the max just before clipping is to get the best possible signal to noise ratio all along the signal chain and thus having the cleanest and richest (think frequencies) sound possible.

But it's only a scientific fact confirmed by tracing the signal from the input to the output, so do what pleases your ears as you might prefer a slightly distorting power amp with mellower tone to an ultra clean sound which can sometimes seem harsh to the ears.

That said on any good designed amp, the D.I. could be taken before or after the preamp...

 

[Japhet]

8 hours ago, 40hz said:

Weirdly enough my functions band had the opposite experience. We found maxing the volume on channels and adjusting overall volume using the gain control greatly reduced the feedback and cleared our stage sound up.

Our problem was getting enough volume without feedback. In the end I bought a Behringer graphic EQ and cut all of the irrelevant frequencies right out which made things a load easier. The main part of the problem though was that our 'singer' has absolutely zero mic technique and no interest in learning either.

[Happy Jack]

38 minutes ago, Japhet said:

The main part of the problem though was that our 'singer' has absolutely zero mic technique and no interest in learning either.

I'm stunned.

Shocked and stunned.