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Newfoundfreedom

Would you play for free?

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Couldnt the punters in the venue just buy a couple of more drinks each to help the venue? Thatd cover the cost of the band, and it's more likely to be their local  pub or club, than the bands.

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51 minutes ago, Bassfinger said:

I trust the yes brigade wont be bleating about working for free?

Work for free so someone else can get paid ?  How is it then the bands fault if pubs and clubs close?

It won't be the bands fault or anybody else's. But unless live music can be made financially viable then pubs and clubs will either close or stop putting on bands. Everybody (musicians, pubs & punters) will lose out. 

34 minutes ago, la bam said:

Couldnt the punters in the venue just buy a couple of more drinks each to help the venue? Thatd cover the cost of the band, and it's more likely to be their local  pub or club, than the bands.

The problem is that in a recession, punters will struggle to be able afford to go out to pubs or clubs - let alone spend more on a rare night out to support the venues & bands. 

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7 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

You'll be getting money off the government then, since you're self employed, made a decent living pre-COVID19 and completed all tax returns etc?

This stinks of the tired assumption that the self employed are all on the blag. 

I work in the touring production industry. I trade as a limited company, even though it's just me. This means I'm not "self employed" so I wasn't eligible for that support. I can't furlough myself, because I still have to undertake what tiny little business activities I can, otherwise I'll have no business to come back to. I don't have premises that are eligible for business rates, so none of the grant schemes apply to me (I did have a small unit but it was within a self storage facility and not counted as eligible premises. I've had to give this space up for financial reasons). 

I've got precisely zero government support. The government support that does exist will cease in a couple of months, long before our industry is able to return to normal. 

There will be no concert touring, festivals, theatre productions etc in 2020. There is no guarantee they'll be back in their normal form in 2021. Will the government continue to support artists, musicians, technicians, production companies, venues, event trucking and bussing suppliers, tour caterers, stewards, security, all the huge supply chain that supports live events? Like hell they will. Redundancies and dead companies will be all over the place.

@dudewheresmybass, like me, will not see his income return to normal levels from live music for quite some time. Our mortgages and bills won't go away. Our kids still need to be fed and clothed. 

I won't be working for free. 

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2 minutes ago, mike257 said:

This stinks of the tired assumption that the self employed are all on the blag. 

I work in the touring production industry. I trade as a limited company, even though it's just me. This means I'm not "self employed" so I wasn't eligible for that support. I can't furlough myself, because I still have to undertake what tiny little business activities I can, otherwise I'll have no business to come back to. I don't have premises that are eligible for business rates, so none of the grant schemes apply to me (I did have a small unit but it was within a self storage facility and not counted as eligible premises. I've had to give this space up for financial reasons). 

I've got precisely zero government support. The government support that does exist will cease in a couple of months, long before our industry is able to return to normal. 

There will be no concert touring, festivals, theatre productions etc in 2020. There is no guarantee they'll be back in their normal form in 2021. Will the government continue to support artists, musicians, technicians, production companies, venues, event trucking and bussing suppliers, tour caterers, stewards, security, all the huge supply chain that supports live events? Like hell they will. Redundancies and dead companies will be all over the place.

@dudewheresmybass, like me, will not see his income return to normal levels from live music for quite some time. Our mortgages and bills won't go away. Our kids still need to be fed and clothed. 

I won't be working for free. 

Thank you mate. 
I have a fair few friends and associates on the other side of the curtain as well. 
the whole industry has been thrown to the wall.

are you eligible for anything through any other support networks? Isn’t there a ‘support staff’ thing called crew nation? How does that work? 
 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, la bam said:

Couldnt the punters in the venue just buy a couple of more drinks each to help the venue? Thatd cover the cost of the band, and it's more likely to be their local  pub or club, than the bands.

It runs to more than a couple of drinks extra. 
the trial that happened this week held 200 ina venue usually containing 1200  

the revenue from this did not even cover the costs of opening the venue up, let alone paying the artiste. Most venues do not make massive profits despite what many think 😉

would you be prepared to pay £50 for a normal £10 show? I think not

Edited by dudewheresmybass
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There's clearly a wide range of those who play, many for free or at a loss already. And I agree that only a fraction can claim assistance off the government; and that it will only be a fraction of what actually was incoming. 

In fairness to the OP the question was raised on another thread and then asked here. Its more like "would you accept a reduction in pay to get back to gigging?". There was the assumption that everyone gets paid for playing, which is certainly not true. I'm not even sure if you can make ANY assumptions about what people typically get (for expenses etc), how frequently people play, etc.

In that context, I think its simply too early to say what the industry will look like in months and years to come. Clearly its upside down at the moment and it will be one of the last to return to (semi-) normality. Very much a case of, plan for the worst, hope for the best.

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7 minutes ago, mike257 said:

This stinks of the tired assumption that the self employed are all on the blag. 

I work in the touring production industry. I trade as a limited company, even though it's just me. This means I'm not "self employed" so I wasn't eligible for that support. I can't furlough myself, because I still have to undertake what tiny little business activities I can, otherwise I'll have no business to come back to. I don't have premises that are eligible for business rates, so none of the grant schemes apply to me (I did have a small unit but it was within a self storage facility and not counted as eligible premises. I've had to give this space up for financial reasons). 

I've got precisely zero government support. The government support that does exist will cease in a couple of months, long before our industry is able to return to normal. 

There will be no concert touring, festivals, theatre productions etc in 2020. There is no guarantee they'll be back in their normal form in 2021. Will the government continue to support artists, musicians, technicians, production companies, venues, event trucking and bussing suppliers, tour caterers, stewards, security, all the huge supply chain that supports live events? Like hell they will. Redundancies and dead companies will be all over the place.

@dudewheresmybass, like me, will not see his income return to normal levels from live music for quite some time. Our mortgages and bills won't go away. Our kids still need to be fed and clothed. 

I won't be working for free. 

Please don't think that you don't have my full support. I am lucky enough to be working from home on full salary, but if things had gone differently I could have taken a redundancy package before the pandemic and been working as a freelance and found myself in the same position as you. The issue is that things are likely to change and could get more difficult for guys like you.

I have a lot of friends in a similar position to you and I am concerned for them. 

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8 minutes ago, dudewheresmybass said:

Thank you mate. 
I have a fair few friends and associates on the other side of the curtain as well. 
the whole industry has been thrown to the wall.

are you eligible for anything through any other support networks? Isn’t there a ‘support staff’ thing called crew nation? How does that work? 
 

Cheers mate - frustrates the hell out of me when people act like we've somehow got it easy being outside the world of "normal" employment. 

I'm receiving a small grant from HelpMusicians UK which, whilst I'm immensely grateful to receive it, is a monthly amount equivalent to what I'd normally earn in one day on tour. I put in for the Crew Nation scheme that Live Nation are running but they were just overwhelmed with applicants. Was in line to be working on their summer of drive-in concerts before all that got pulled too!

I was doing some delivery driving for a local brewery but they've laid off all the home delivery drivers now they're back supplying pubs. 

There's little bits happening - I'm involved with a live streamed festival happening at the end of August, and possibly doing some installation work for a couple of new bars/venues, but everything has the shadow of a return to lockdown hanging over it, especially in light of this week's local restrictions in some areas.  It's very hard to plan ahead with any confidence. 

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Posted (edited)
On 30/07/2020 at 11:41, Newfoundfreedom said:

This came up on another thread and I though it was an interesting topic for discussion. 

If a venue where you played regularly asked you to play for free, given that the current social distancing measures make it difficult for any venue to make money, would you do it, at the risk that without your support the venue may have to close for good? 

Yeah, I’d do it, and have done this is the past. We did 3 on the trot, one a week,  bur had agreed to do 4. On the 4th we actually got paid, which was nice, and seemed to do the trick. The venue was booking bands for a long time after. 

If i agreed to not be paid i dont care who else gets paid. Ill make the decision based on how i feel about it. Its easy to say no and walk away. 

Edited by dave_bass5
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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Bassfinger said:

I trust the yes brigade wont be bleating about working for free?

Work for free so someone else can get paid ?

The principle of deferred gratification.  'Working' for free in the short term so you can work for money at a later date. Maybe you're not bothered about competing for less gigs? Not everyone is....and not everyone sees it as a grinding hardship either. Maybe the pubs will get jukeboxes in and sh!tcan bands altogether. I'm surprised more pubs haven't before.

Edited by odysseus
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On 30/07/2020 at 12:04, Woodinblack said:

This would entirely depend on the venue, there is some venues I would pay for free for if I believed they needed help, on the proviso that it was while they needed help and would expect it to be a temporary things.

There are some other venues I fully expect to be asking because they are the type that have always tried to pull a fast one in the past, so this would be another excuse. Those I wouldn't.

This. We have some venues that are struggling due to their size, they have given us regular gigs in the past, paid us well and are very nice people to deal with. Playing one or two gigs for free during the early stages of (hopefully) their recovery to try and make sure the venue continues having live music so we can gig their regularly again in the future is simply an investment in their future and therefore ours. YMMV. 

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On 30/07/2020 at 23:48, Rich said:

I'm in a 12 piece band. I basically play for free anyway :lol: 

The rate of pay is inversely proportional to how much fun you have.

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4 hours ago, odysseus said:

The principle of deferred gratification.  'Working' for free in the short term so you can work for money at a later date. Maybe you're not bothered about competing for less gigs? Not everyone is....and not everyone sees it as a grinding hardship either. Maybe the pubs will get jukeboxes in and sh!tcan bands altogether. I'm surprised more pubs haven't before.

Its not work if you arent getting paid, therefore I’d look on it as fun. Some like to have fun, some see it as a job, some see it as fun that pays. Takes all sorts. 

Given the choice of sitting at home or out having fun, fun wins all the time. I’m a selfish bugger. 

 

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1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

The rate of pay is inversely proportional to how much fun you have.

I never thought of it like that before.... but it certainly rings true for me! 😄

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2 minutes ago, odysseus said:

I never thought of it like that before.... but it certainly rings true for me! 😄

Not for me. The best two gigs ive done in the past 10 years were free. Our drummers wedding and a mate’s (of the band) birthday party. Waaaaaaay more fun than a social club that pays £500. 

Weddings are great, but long days and can be problematic. Sometimes after 8 hours of sitting around you lose the will to live, let alone perform for 2 hours with a smile. Had some great ones though. These pay well.

 Pubs have been fun, no pressure, shorter sets, and good atmosphere. Lowest payers though, although some have been as close as a Social club. 

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4 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Not for me. The best two gigs ive done in the past 10 years were free. Our drummers wedding and a mate’s (of the band) birthday party. Waaaaaaay more fun than a social club that pays £500. 

That's exactly what I meant with respect to inverse proportion. 🙂  I've done weddings, wakes and bar mitvahs for quite a chunk of cash years ago, but I have way more fun these days playing dive bars for peanuts.

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2 minutes ago, odysseus said:

That's exactly what I meant with respect to inverse proportion. 🙂  I've done weddings, wakes and bar mitvahs for quite a chunk of cash years ago, but I have way more fun these days playing dive bars for peanuts.

Ah yes, sorry, i missed that when i quoted the wrong post lol. 

Mind you, when i wake up the next morning with £500 in my pocket from a wedding, rather just a hang over and empty pockets it does make the next day a lot of fun lol. 

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Just now, dave_bass5 said:

Mind you, when i wake up the next morning with £500 in my pocket from a wedding, rather just a hang over and empty pockets it does make the next day a lot of fun lol. 

There is that... funding the GAS!! All my gig earnings got spent on gear! 😎

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20 minutes ago, odysseus said:

There is that... funding the GAS!! All my gig earnings got spent on gear! 😎

All my day job earnings also got spent on gear.....started around the time i found Bass World 🤔

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21 hours ago, mike257 said:

I work in the touring production industry. I trade as a limited company, even though it's just me. This means I'm not "self employed" so I wasn't eligible for that support. I can't furlough myself, because I still have to undertake what tiny little business activities I can, otherwise I'll have no business to come back to. I don't have premises that are eligible for business rates, so none of the grant schemes apply to me (I did have a small unit but it was within a self storage facility and not counted as eligible premises. I've had to give this space up for financial reasons). 

I've got precisely zero government support. The government support that does exist will cease in a couple of months, long before our industry is able to return to normal. 

I'm in a different field, but exactly the same place... my work dropped massively, but no help whatsoever.

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My band already told our most regular venue well play for free when gigs are back on.

 

We really want to support them.

we all work and play for fun but the pub rely on the income to pay wages.

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4 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I'm in a different field, but exactly the same place... my work dropped massively, but no help whatsoever.

Sorry to hear that. There's an awful lot of people in a similar position. The government have played a blinder in coming out with great, headline grabbing schemes that they can shout about come the next election, whilst simultaneously making the small print full of enough challenges that an absolute ton of businesses and individuals have been left without any real support. 

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On 30/07/2020 at 11:41, Newfoundfreedom said:

If a venue where you played regularly asked you to play for free, given that the current social distancing measures make it difficult for any venue to make money, would you do it, at the risk that without your support the venue may have to close for good? 

No.

I read about a Frank Turner show a few nights ago at a smallish venue that was open at around 20% capacity (with social distancing) as an experiment. IIRC it was a 1200 cap venue with around 200 people in.

The venue said that they didn’t cover their operating costs even before paying the artist. So I don’t think that playing for free is going to help venues stay afloat.

Reduced capacity gigs just don’t seem financially viable for anyone.

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1 hour ago, joeystrange said:

No.

I read about a Frank Turner show a few nights ago at a smallish venue that was open at around 20% capacity (with social distancing) as an experiment. IIRC it was a 1200 cap venue with around 200 people in.

The venue said that they didn’t cover their operating costs even before paying the artist. So I don’t think that playing for free is going to help venues stay afloat.

Reduced capacity gigs just don’t seem financially viable for anyone.

Yep. The reality for small to medium sized venues is that you need a pretty well packed house to break even. When you slash capacity to 20% but you also need more staff in to enforce distancing measures, you don't have to be a genius to realise the numbers won't work. 

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If I was playing for free when I would normally get paid then I’m effectively making a donation. To do that I would really need to believe in the ‘cause’. So that’s a possible but not likely. 

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