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Is having a thorough formal music training a barrier to being inventive?

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16 minutes ago, Ricky 4000 said:

I'm just saying that there are, and have been, many many great creators who are/were great without advanced knowledge of music theory. I was beginning with those Delta blues players, but you could start anywhere.

In my view, for every 'book smart' muso, there's a guy or gal saying 'I don't know what the chord is, I just put this finger there instead of there'.

One could take the view that advanced theory is more useful to a critic than a creator (although as I said, I'm not against learning!).

 

But it does't illustrate that formal training is a barrier. It just shows that no formal training means its still possible to be successful/inventive/good at improvising/whatever the measure is.

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I think we've established that you can be creative and / or successful with or without formal training.

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5 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

I think we've established that you can be creative and / or successful with or without formal training.

I do like a firm conclusion. :lol:

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37 minutes ago, Ricky 4000 said:

I'm just saying that there are, and have been, many many great creators who are/were great without advanced knowledge of music theory...

One could also suggest that these, many, great creators would, or could, have been so much greater had they had a bit more formal knowledge of their subject. Were (Are...) they great because of this lack of knowledge, or despite it..? I'd suggest the latter. There are, of course, worthy exceptions, but I can't think of many 'greats' that would have been less so if more knowledgeable, and many 'greats' who went on to even more creation after gaining access to peer knowledge, an education in itself.
An eternal debate, with no absolute answer. Maybe in some ways comparable to the plastic arts created by the 'Naive' schools, compared to the more studious works. I know which I'd rather have hanging on my walls. ;)

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1 hour ago, leftybassman392 said:

👍

I was asked to do that once. Had to turn the guy down though: the rest of the band were good with it but the tympanist let us down; dozy w*nker.

1483457837_laughemoji.jpg.fc6f3fe2426c73d8e0278fde475451d7.jpg

TLRT's spaffed so you'll have to make do with an in-line reaction.

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11 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

1483457837_laughemoji.jpg.fc6f3fe2426c73d8e0278fde475451d7.jpg

TLRT's spaffed so you'll have to make do with an in-line reaction.

No worries. I'm almost past caring about TLRTs TBH (although if you, y'know, happen to have any to, y'know, spare at any time... Be nice to get to 3,000 at some point. Looks so much better than 2,999...)

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8 minutes ago, leftybassman392 said:

...Looks so much better than 2,999...)

And yet so much stuff is costed at £2999, rather than £3000. A paradox..? :/

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15 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

A paradox..?

There you go. No need to thank me.

two-ducks.jpg

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1 hour ago, paul_c2 said:

But it doesn't illustrate that formal training is a barrier. It just shows that no formal training means its still possible to be successful/inventive/good at improvising/whatever the measure is.

I wasn't trying to illustrate that it is. 🙂 I was just responding to the assertion that: There are very few examples of musically uneducated creative types, who are successful

 

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

One could also suggest that these, many, great creators would, or could, have been so much greater had they had a bit more formal knowledge of their subject. Were (Are...) they great because of this lack of knowledge, or despite it..? I'd suggest the latter. There are, of course, worthy exceptions, but I can't think of many 'greats' that would have been less so if more knowledgeable, and many 'greats' who went on to even more creation after gaining access to peer knowledge, an education in itself.
An eternal debate, with no absolute answer. Maybe in some ways comparable to the plastic arts created by the 'Naive' schools, compared to the more studious works. I know which I'd rather have hanging on my walls. ;)

Thank you daddy 🙂

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2 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

There you go. No need to thank me.

a39K7aO.gif

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Posted (edited)

Threads like this remind me of Sir jimmy Young's lunchtime shows on BBC Radio2.

A show I was never particularly fond of, but don't take that as an insult to this thread, I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts.

They would pick a contentious subject.. Should children be hung drawn and quartered for chewing gum in public, for example; then invite one guest on that was in favour and one against. after a hour or so of nothing but shouting each other down, eventually, some member of the public would pipe up with " What about the pensioners? we never get free gum." and the subject would be drawn to a close.

My contribution is to say...sod the pensioners , where's my beer ..oh and,

To answer the OP's question , 

Trained or not people can create, or not.

The trained musician though may think, "I can't play a flat third there, in this key as it is against the rules" ( point of fact I know bugger all about theory so please ignore the fact that this example may be inaccurate 😉 ) whereas a non trained guy might think ...ooo that sounds cool...and the general public don't care because they are happy to sing along to the chorus of Agadoo, whether it's musically grammatically correct or not. 🙂

 

 

Edited by Raymondo
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It never did Stravinsky any harm. Or Chris Potter. Its a non argument. The two disciplines are not mutually exclusive. You can do one, t'other or both. Some are creative because, some in spite of. It's all good. 

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On 22/07/2020 at 17:17, ahpook said:

This isn't going to end well.

It will for those who know what a Coda is.

:D

 

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26 minutes ago, lowdown said:

It will for those who know what a Coda is.

:D

More likely to be ...

AO1MfD1.png

:(

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You cannot be trained to be creative. Similarly, it's entirely possible to be creative, but unable to express it in a certain way due to lack of knowledge, training or ability.  You either are or you ain't - history is littered with noteworthy examples from both camps, which must surely preclude any possibily of musical education or otherwise negating any creative ability.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, lowdown said:

It will for those who know what a Coda is.

:D

 

 

Spector-Coda-4-Deluxe.jpg?w=620&ssl=1

 

Edited by ahpook
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2 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

And yet so much stuff is costed at £2999, rather than £3000. A paradox..? :/

Nice try, but I'm not going back to the DoIT any time soon. ;)

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Posted (edited)

Google proffered me a link the other day. I can't remember the band/guitarist (fairly well known) but he claimed to have come up with his 'own' scale.

it actually sounds good, I figured it out as a harmonic minor with a sharp 4th giving a sort of cross between harmonic minor and blues scale.

<edit>

Sorry the point is a trained musician is unlikely to come up with such a thing, although doubt more radical composers try such things all the time.

Edited by Stub Mandrel
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2 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Google proffered me a link the other day. I can't remember the band/guitarist (fairly well known) but he claimed to have come up with his 'own' scale.

it actually sounds good, I figured it out as a harmonic minor with a sharp 4th giving a sort of cross between harmonic minor and blues scale.

He's re-invented the Hungarian Minor then!

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46 minutes ago, NickD said:

He's re-invented the Hungarian Minor then!

Ah. Don't be so non-inventive with yer... knowledge and.. er... stuff!
The guy was being inventive.
He invented the Dunning-Kruger scale! 😁

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13 hours ago, Bassfinger said:

You cannot be trained to be creative. Similarly, it's entirely possible to be creative, but unable to express it in a certain way due to lack of knowledge, training or ability.  You either are or you ain't - history is littered with noteworthy examples from both camps, which must surely preclude any possibly of musical education or otherwise negating any creative ability.

I get what you're saying. But we've not really defined what it means to be "creative".  Every time we write, draw or put a short video clip together we are being creative and I think more folk have the ability to be creative than they realise.

A bit of guidance (aka training) can give folk the tools and confidence to express their creativity. So I guess that puts me in the opposite camp to the OP.

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10 hours ago, Al Krow said:

I get what you're saying. But we've not really defined what it means to be "creative".  Every time we write, draw or put a short video clip together we are being creative and I think more folk have the ability to be creative than they realise.

A bit of guidance (aka training) can give folk the tools and confidence to express their creativity. So I guess that puts me in the opposite camp to the OP.

Agreed, especially your comment about giving people tools and confidence. "Creativity" isn't something finite - something we have a fixed amount or supply of (I may not be expressing that very well, but hopefully my meaning is clear). It's potentially infinite, but, as with any ability (or potential ability), we need to learn how to develop it and acquire the tools to enable us to get the best/most out of it. Otherwise, we will be out of options once our initial stock of good or original ideas is exhausted. Hope this makes some sort of sense.

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I had a conversation with a musician who has studied composition once. He said the training helps you develop your ideas more quickly and intelligently but, in the end, you need to find the idea to develop yourself. They can't really teach you that (although I think they can teach you how to provoke ideas). 

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This reminds of a quote attributed to one of my favourite artists in any media:

Quote

All artists are willing to suffer for their work. But why are so few prepared to learn to draw?

- Banksy

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