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Is having a thorough formal music training a barrier to being inventive?


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3 minutes ago, peteb said:

I think that you have to be careful looking for similarities across the centuries. The great composers would often write on commission and they didn't just write grand symphonies. They would write what there was a demand for (but all within a broad classical tradition), but they would not deign to write certain types of 'low' or folk type music, which they thought below them and would not please their wealthy patrons or high brow society audience.

I believe that the possible exception was Mozart, who liked to upset the more pompous sections of society (but I may have  just got that from Amadeus)... 

The problem is, there's so many exceptions both historically and in modern times, that it weakens the point you made. There is a wide range of aspirations in musicians, both those still aspiring and those who have "made the big time".

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11 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

The problem is, there's so many exceptions both historically and in modern times, that it weakens the point you made. There is a wide range of aspirations in musicians, both those still aspiring and those who have "made the big time".

I'm not sure that I know any more what point you think I was making. All I was saying is that Beethoven was one of the greats of classical music, but I don't think that he could knock out 12 bar rock & roll tunes as good as Chuck Berry could (or even Status Quo). 

Similarly, songwriters can successfully write across different genres (to a point). Paul McCartney has had great success writing songs across the pop music and rock & roll canon, but he has never made a heavy metal record as good as Master of Puppets.  

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A more interesting debate is the one currently bubbling away on the classical music scene.

Up to about 120 years ago, improvisation was the norm, so your 'classical' musicians at the level of soloists would be expected to be able to extemporise and innovate on the hoof.

It was only during the 20th century that playing by the score became de rigeur; rather like the standardisation of all the variations of Shakespeare's plays (many of which had been cut and pasted with each other or had large chunks by other writers inserted by 1900).

Just as theatres like the Globe try and recapture an 'authentic' Tudor performance, the debate is now should improvisational skills be taught as part of a classical music education and brought back into performance.

The mere existence of this debate suggest that, at present, formal musical training does, at least discourage experimentation - at least among performers, if not composers.

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Nah, not at all. It boils down to what audiences are expecting. If you're doing a Beethoven Violin Concerto - your audiences are expecting the original, they really don't want your twiddly bits chucked in! 

And there are plenty of concert standard classically trained brass musicians who can turn their hand to a bit of jazz improv.

It's not either / or. 

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6 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

A more interesting debate is the one currently bubbling away on the classical music scene.

Up to about 120 years ago, improvisation was the norm, so your 'classical' musicians at the level of soloists would be expected to be able to extemporise and innovate on the hoof.

It was only during the 20th century that playing by the score became de rigeur; rather like the standardisation of all the variations of Shakespeare's plays (many of which had been cut and pasted with each other or had large chunks by other writers inserted by 1900).

Just as theatres like the Globe try and recapture an 'authentic' Tudor performance, the debate is now should improvisational skills be taught as part of a classical music education and brought back into performance.

The mere existence of this debate suggest that, at present, formal musical training does, at least discourage experimentation - at least among performers, if not composers.

To be honest, not being the sort of chap who participates in debate among the classical music set, I didn't know that. I thought that for the past 200 years plus the thing was very much, play what's on the page.

 

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On 23/07/2020 at 21:58, Bassfinger said:

You cannot be trained to be creative.

I think you can - I was.

i went to art school and was literally trained to be creative, and then given tools to keep being creative and coming up with new ideas - even when I had no inspiration. Admittedly to be admitted to art school I had to show an aptitude towards creativity and a level of skill - but even that I would argue was nurture rather than nature. My mum encouraging me to be observant from a young age made a big difference.


my education also gave me the knowledge of the rules and history of art and why to do things. Of intentionally breaking the rules and knowing why those rules are interesting to break. 

I started playing bass as a creative outlet that had no demands on my to reach a certain level - There are big gaps in my skills. But as I’ve learned to play  I can tell that most the better players have a theoretical knowledge that means they can Play better. 

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There does seem to be a subset of amateur, not-naturally-talented, 'classical' musicians who follow a path of choosing an orchestral instrument, being uninspired by a very average teacher who lazily follows the ABRSM syllabus and are basically frightened of improvisation. 

I think the tide is turning but there will always be a reason not to try something new, with certain people.

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50 minutes ago, peteb said:

To be honest, not being the sort of chap who participates in debate among the classical music set, I didn't know that. I thought that for the past 200 years plus the thing was very much, play what's on the page.

 

Google 'Basso continuo', it'll blow your mind ;)

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The ABRSM Jazz syllabus includes improvisation. The pieces all have blank bits in, they have some suggested notes to get you started but you’re welcome to ignore them. The two teachers I’ve had have both encouraged originality.

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Also, it’s worth pointing out that formal music education does not equal classical (now referred to as western art music) and hasn’t for a long time. I followed along a bit when my ex mrs now friend did a music access course and degree in popular and world music. Plenty of music theory but across all music including plenty of improvised stuff. That’s where I first came across jazz that I actually liked (and the ABRSM Jazz Piano stuff which I’ve now picked up again years later).

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2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Up to about 120 years ago, improvisation was the norm, so your 'classical' musicians at the level of soloists would be expected to be able to extemporise and innovate on the hoof.

All music old enough is practically improvised. No one can claim, what was the actual idea behind any score. The composer is dead and there are no recordings available.

The dirigent may have studied the works of an old master and interpret (improvise) the score the way s/he sees feasible. After the concert we listen to critics who discuss about "ponderable tempo and agogic choices" in detail.

If you think that the guitar fight in the Crossroads movie was very original, study a bit of history and check how much Mr. Bach walked in Europe trying to find music competitions. Winners could get some money, although Johann's reputation as an improvising player was soon known in so many places there was no competition - and no money.

By the way, JSB liked bars and used many folk songs in the themes he refined. I could call them pop(ular) songs of his time.

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6 hours ago, peteb said:

For example, I had worked out what modes were long before I found out that they were actually called ‘modes’, yet alone the names of them (some of which I still forget)!

I think this is an important point. Some of the most musical people I know haven’t the faintest idea about theory, in terms of what things are called etc., but they know what things sound like.  Not knowing what a particular mode or scale - or even note, at the most extreme - is called in no way affects your understanding of how those sounds can be used, in the same way that a painter doesn’t have to know that green is called green or red is called red in order to paint an incredible picture. This seems to get lost in a lot of these debates. Still, I remember having a discussion with a friend who is also a musician and us coming to the conclusion that we understood music in a completely different way to each other. To him it was maths. To me, it was more like painting with sound. 

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2 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

I think you can - I was.

i went to art school and was literally trained to be creative, and then given tools to keep being creative and coming up with new ideas - even when I had no inspiration. Admittedly to be admitted to art school I had to show an aptitude towards creativity and a level of skill - but even that I would argue was nurture rather than nature. My mum encouraging me to be observant from a young age made a big difference.


my education also gave me the knowledge of the rules and history of art and why to do things. Of intentionally breaking the rules and knowing why those rules are interesting to break. 

I started playing bass as a creative outlet that had no demands on my to reach a certain level - There are big gaps in my skills. But as I’ve learned to play  I can tell that most the better players have a theoretical knowledge that means they can Play better. 

Yes, you can be trained, up to a point. But formal education, as touched on elsewhere, can equally have the opposite effect. I too went to art school, learnt history and developed my technique (although that was more down to working at it all day every day than being taught), but I had the creativity slowly bled from me by blinkered tutors, and I wasn’t strong enough at the time to be able to assert myself. It led to me dropping out and almost giving up art entirely, which up to that point was, IMO, the thing that defined me. 

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2 minutes ago, 4000 said:

Yes, you can be trained, up to a point. But formal education, as touched on elsewhere, can equally have the opposite effect. I too went to art school, learnt history and developed my technique (although that was more down to working at it all day every day than being taught), but I had the creativity slowly bled from me by blinkered tutors, and I wasn’t strong enough at the time to be able to assert myself. It led to me dropping out and almost giving up art entirely, which up to that point was, IMO, the thing that defined me. 

whereas our tutors encouraged us to do whatever we wanted, as long as we did it properly. My old band formed out of a project we were doing.

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11 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

whereas our tutors encouraged us to do whatever we wanted, as long as we did it properly. My old band formed out of a project we were doing.

You were very lucky. I came out of art school far less creative than when I went in, albeit with greater knowledge. 

As for music, that bore no relation at all to our studies, and was frowned upon. Even photography was frowned upon. I suspect you’re a good deal younger than me though and things have likely changed a lot. Or maybe we were just unlucky.😉

We did get George Hardie for 2 weeks as a guest tutor though. Lovely man. 

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3 minutes ago, 4000 said:

You were very lucky. I came out of art school far less creative than when I went in, albeit with greater knowledge. 

As for music, that bore no relation at all to our studies, and was frowned upon. Even photography was frowned upon. I suspect you’re a good deal younger than me though and things have likely changed a lot.

We did get George Hardie for 2 weeks as a guest tutor though. Lovely man. 

I graduated in 2007 just into the Great Recession with a degree in sculpture.

i was lucky - I was on the best course, in the best 5 year block where for a while we were really good and had great tutors. 

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13 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

There does seem to be a subset of amateur, not-naturally-talented, 'classical' musicians who follow a path of choosing an orchestral instrument, being uninspired by a very average teacher who lazily follows the ABRSM syllabus and are basically frightened of improvisation. 

I think the tide is turning but there will always be a reason not to try something new, with certain people.

Definitely some truth in that.

I wouldn't say all the affected teachers are lazy though - many of those are employed by local authorities and are thus under a foul target system based on how their students do in the exams. They have targets for number of pupils taking exams, times between increasing grades, and the grades themselves. In that environment it's little wonder that the product is little robots.

 

I moved both my kids (clarinet and sax) to a new teacher to get away from that. The teacher is independent and has no problem with whatever the aims of a student happens to be. Some want to get to Grade 8 as soon as possible and push for a conservatoire place. Others just want to play with advice for 30 mins per week. The new teacher is not constrained by Local Authority targets.

 

It has made a big difference to both the kids. They are actually practising more, and it's fun again. Their progress has actually sped up simply because it is fun.

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