The death of the amp

[thedontcarebear]

How does everyone feel about this subject?

I think with guitars you can really tell, the likes of Kemper seem to have killed the valve amp market, a secondhand Rectifier etc is now very cheap compared to 10 years ago.  But I would personally rather have that Rectifier.

I've noticed it a bit with bass amps too, obviously SWR are now worth a tiny fraction of what they once were (although they don't exist now), and even what I think are the best amps I've played - EBS are pretty cheap compared to previous years for the full size rackmount ones.  Not sure if bass modelling is really out there on mass in the same way, but the likes of Sansamp have been used by bassists for years in the studio anyway.

Maybe it's just me though!

[itu]

As long as you gig you need power. If the PA is not able to support bass (like a small set for singers), an amp is a must. Besides musicians tend to have varying tastes: if it has to be a tube amp...

[thedontcarebear]

Yeah, I'd say valve amps for bass is of course not as popular as it is with guitars - however, for bass I'd say its more about size.  Smaller amps seem to be replacing the larger ones for bass, whereas for guitar, it's often modellers.

[Pow_22]

Im still to find a 'lightweight' amp or cab that fully captures MY sound.  An ampeg valve amp into a sealed cab.  Ive tried so many pedals, class d etc etc and it just isnt there yet for me

[HazBeen]

I highly doubt either guitar or bass amps will disappear totally, of the 30 guitarists I know 1 uses a Kemper (or equivalent) and I am one of the few bassists in my local scene that uses a Helix, and even I often still prefer “old school” as to me it sounds better.

[Skybone]

You still need some sort of amp on stage, whether you go for a "traditional" amp, or whether you go for an FRFR rig.

A lot of venues still have PA's that don't have enough monitors, or an inept sound engineer, so having some sort of way to amplify your own noises is essential (as well as being able to hear the noises made by everyone else on stage). Whether those sounds come from a purely analogue source, via a solid state amp, or via a digital interface, they still need to be heard via some sort of amplification.

Although I use a digital interface as a pre-amp, I still lug around a bass amp.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I recall a similar conversation regarding the death of valves, soon to be totally supplanted by SS. That conversation took place in 1966.

[fretmeister]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

I recall a similar conversation regarding the death of valves, soon to be totally supplanted by SS. That conversation took place in 1966.

I imagine that if / when it happens it will be because valves are no longer economical to make / sell.

 

Guitar forums are still full of people buying valve amps. Even those who use a modelling unit for gigging for ease of set up and FOH often still have a valve amp or 2 at home. I haven't gigged on guitar for ages, but when I do, I've got my Helix rack. But at home I've got a Marshall SC20H (Mini JCM800) just because I love it.

High end amps like Friedmans and Diezel are still selling well and holding their value. Small builders like Rift are selling plenty. There are loads more useable 20W valve amps than there were a decade ago.

 

Mesa stuff is an outlier. When Westside started jacking the UK prices the used ones stayed about the same. £3200 RRP for a Dual Rectifier Reborn - can buy a used one for £1000 to £1200 with a little patience. Amps are full of expensive components, but if Diezel can sell the VH4 (4 channels with Midi and phantom power) for £2500, then there is no good reason why the Dual Rec couldn't be under that. It's a more simple amp.

 

I really like Mesa amps - but I'd never buy a new one.

The only thing in the universe that has a higher level of depreciation after being used is a condom.

[BigRedX]

8 hours ago, thedontcarebear said:

How does everyone feel about this subject?

I think with guitars you can really tell, the likes of Kemper seem to have killed the valve amp market, a secondhand Rectifier etc is now very cheap compared to 10 years ago.  But I would personally rather have that Rectifier.

I've noticed it a bit with bass amps too, obviously SWR are now worth a tiny fraction of what they once were (although they don't exist now), and even what I think are the best amps I've played - EBS are pretty cheap compared to previous years for the full size rackmount ones.  Not sure if bass modelling is really out there on mass in the same way, but the likes of Sansamp have been used by bassists for years in the studio anyway.

Maybe it's just me though!

It really depends what you bass amp is for. If you need it for the audience to hear you then it's not going away any time soon.

For those of us who use PA support a bass rig has little purpose these days. Some sort of tone-shaping pre-amp/DI device or a multi-effects like the Helix combined with an FRFR cab for those gigs where the monitoring won't be as good as the FoH system and you are sorted.

I got rid of my rig after and handful of gigs where I'd been asked to turn down on stage so much (in order to get a controllable FoH mix) that I could hear the bass guitar louder in the guitarist's foldback wedge than I could from own speakers even stood directly in front of them. I now have a Helix Floor and an RCF745 powdered cab as a personal monitor. The pair cost less brand new then I paid for my last full rig which was mostly second hand. For gigs where I know the foldback is going to be good I don't even bother bringing the RCF.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

I imagine that if / when it happens it will be because valves are no longer economical to make / sell.

That conversation began in the 1980s, when valves were eliminated from virtually all consumer devices other than amps. It deepened in the 1990s, when the Soviets and Chinese began to shift away from valves in their military hardware. They'll continue to be made as long as people buy them, even though they're at prices now that are on average five times what they were in the 1970s, and that's after accounting for inflation.

[Beer of the Bass]

19 hours ago, fretmeister said:

Guitar forums are still full of people buying valve amps. Even those who use a modelling unit for gigging for ease of set up and FOH often still have a valve amp or 2 at home. I haven't gigged on guitar for ages, but when I do, I've got my Helix rack. But at home I've got a Marshall SC20H (Mini JCM800) just because I love it.

High end amps like Friedmans and Diezel are still selling well and holding their value. Small builders like Rift are selling plenty. There are loads more useable 20W valve amps than there were a decade ago.

 

 

 

I think with valve amps for guitar it's almost analogous to acoustic piano. Many working musicians will find digital emulations more practical in a lot of their working environments, but I feel that to really use them well it helps to have spent some time with the thing they're emulating. And there are some settings where they will probably never go away as long as they can still be built and maintained.

[Japhet]

Helix and Kemper are obviously far more convenient than a big old valve amp and corresponding cab, but it's not much hardship to gig with a decent class D head and lighweight cab. Reliability could become an issue when the Helix type stuff gets old whereas I've always found class D amp 100% reliable. The other obvious thing for me is that nothing sounds anything like a valve amp into a decent cab. I've invested in the gear I have because I like the sound and the presence of it and am fully aware that most audience members wouldn't notice any difference whatever I was playing through.

[Dan Dare]

To paraphrase Mark Twain, rumours of the death of the amp have been greatly exaggerated.

[akabane]

It is a very interesting topic.

I think it's very naive to compare what has been happening recently (and most importantly, what will happen in the next 10 years...which should happen in the next 2-3 really, but the music industry likes to stretch technology soooo thin in order to rake in more money it's embarassing) to whatever other type of amplification evolution that happened in the past.

The fact is that we already are able to digitally capture and reproduce how many combinations of amplifications we want. The waveform signals start to literally be the same. The only thing that then needs to keep up is the waveform reproduction systems (at this point, it seems like the FRFR ones are the most apt to reproduce such signals), which is where I think more research should focus on. 

The main point I see in going sim+frfr would be more justifiable for people who play at home/small/medium gigs, even just because of the price and size/transportability. It's been proven again and again how for similar budgets and sizes, that solution tends to be more versatile, consistent between venues, and often time more powerful (if need be taken to that level). On the other hand you have god-tier bands like Metallica who now exclusively gig with ampsims and FRFR. People who would swear by their valve monsters. They sound like Metallica. They love it. The audiences love it.

The truth is, most people still don't believe that if you have a pure enough sound reproduction system, you can EQ in any 'amp' sound one wants; 'my tone' is still believed by some to be this magical thing that comes from some sparkly dust inside their amps  So much so that still so many gigs have 'shells' of valve amps, because people listen with their eyes!

(And also why there is a market for FRFR cabs in the 'shape' of normal cabs )

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by akabane

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

If you doubt that valves will be with us for long consider what's happened with vinyl.

[akabane]

6 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

If you doubt that valves will be with us for long consider what's happened with vinyl.

Oh I'm not saying we should get rid of valves, amps, cabs and so on. I myself would love a big donkey stack with a valve amp moving the hairs on my back from time to time. However, we should be objectively aware of what's been happening so far (it is a science, after all), to each their own, let's not demonise other's choices (not saying you are - talking in general), and so on and so forth  

[stevie]

20 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

If you doubt that valves will be with us for long consider what's happened with vinyl.

... and black and white TV.

[LukeFRC]

32 minutes ago, stevie said:

... and black and white TV.

Netflix 'Roma' seemed to do alright... 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, akabane said:

let's not demonise other's choices (not saying you are - talking in general), and so on and so forth  

My comments are purely observational. I haven't owned a valve amp since the early 80s.

[fretmeister]

3 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

If you doubt that valves will be with us for long consider what's happened with vinyl.

That's true, but as you say the price of valves has gone up quite a lot.

 

Even if they don't disappear maybe at some point the amps they go in will become genuine high priced luxury items and not something available for £500 anymore.

[mazdah]

Helix, Kemper, Fractal, Line6, Zoom .... I've heard that before. When Zoom multiFX were relased (I rememver 505/506 models) the predictions were the same. And everyone was saying, that the quality of amp sims from those effects were so close and so great to the original, that you won't need an amp anymore. 

They are convenient, having many good and useable sounds in single, lightweight unit saves space, money, energy and time. But when it comes to PURE sound quality, richness and dynamics I guess we need another 10-20 years of intensive R&D development to get close to an old, beaten up, 30 years old SWR amp. For overdriven tube amps like SVT, Mesa D180/400 or B-15 I'd say another 10-15. 

[Skinner]

Yes, the convenience is great, the quality of sound is very good - however I recently had the chance to play my bass through my own power amp and a genuine acoustic 360 pre into one and then 2 folded horn cabs = bass nirvana, the sound was exactly what I e been searching for, I know where I'm headed now. I also don't mind lugging big heavy gear around - which is lucky cos that's what I will be doing for gigs. Ultimately if I can replicate that tone with more modern gear then that's fine- nothing I have tried so far has come close.

[BigRedX]

23 minutes ago, Skinner said:

Yes, the convenience is great, the quality of sound is very good - however I recently had the chance to play my bass through my own power amp and a genuine acoustic 360 pre into one and then 2 folded horn cabs = bass nirvana, the sound was exactly what I e been searching for, I know where I'm headed now. I also don't mind lugging big heavy gear around - which is lucky cos that's what I will be doing for gigs. Ultimately if I can replicate that tone with more modern gear then that's fine- nothing I have tried so far has come close.

How does you audience here this fantastic bass sound? From your rig or from the PA?

If it's from the PA are they mic'ing up both cabs?

[JapanAxe]

Surely amp-less bass (and to some extent ampless electric guitar) depends on having a very powerful PA? At one time that equated to 'huge and heavy' but not so much now.

Last Autumn I played a couple of dep gigs where the lead guitar was DI'd from a Fractal (I think) but they still asked me to use my bass amp and cab at a decent onstage volume, and put it through the PA to beef it up for the FOH mix (in a huge marquee). I enjoyed that, but I'm probably not alone in thinking that having only DI'd bass might be lacking in the fun factor.

[Skinner]

7 hours ago, BigRedX said:

How does you audience here this fantastic bass sound? From your rig or from the PA?

If it's from the PA are they mic'ing up both cabs?

I was trying out before I purchased one of the cabs it wasn't a gig- at a gig I don't mic a cab- I would di if I needed to bolster the bass rig through pa.