Vintage Bridge vs Hi Mass Bridge

[4000]

6 hours ago, LITTLEWING said:

 

Except in the case of changing the saddles, once I changed them back the sound went back to what it had been before, so that unfortunately isn’t the case. 

[4000]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

A lot of people say this. I guess it depends on what you want to play.

In Boys Of Summer I wanted a strong sustain for 4 bars, to hold on and not die in the middle of bar 3 and leave me looking like I've fallen asleep or forgotten to play. I've had basses that could do that and basses that couldn't. Most basses can hold a note for a bar and many for 2 bars. 4 bars sorts the men from the boys.

My old US Lakland was the best. You could go shopping and when you came back the note would still be ringing. If you don't need that facility, fine, but if you do you'll be thankful for the guys who make basses that can do that.

Well I never play covers, so there is that. 😉 But I’ve never, ever thought a bass has dropped out before I wanted it to, and I’ve had a lot of basses. Relatively few bolt-ons though, so I don’t know if that’s also a factor, he says, clutching at straws. 😁

[BigRedX]

On 12/06/2020 at 23:15, chris_b said:

Because when an armchair expert starts to tell a world class company that they don't know their business as well as he does. . . . it's obviously an Oh, Dear moment.

How do you know that I'm just an "armchair expert" and not someone with with a physics degree in the relevant fields? You don't.

As it happens I don't have the correct degree, but I remember enough about physics from school to realise that most of the marketing claims about high-mass bridges are simply marketing claims and not backed up with real science. If someone does know the subject inside out is prepared to prove that I am wrong and back up their arguments with proper scientific facts to show it, then I'll be happy to be corrected.

But, AFAICS there has been zero scientific fact to contradict what I've said so far. 

On 12/06/2020 at 23:58, peteb said:

I'm coming to the opinion that it’s pointless contributing to these threads - too many 'armchair experts' who haven't got a clue. 

You would expect a debate on what is supposed to be a forum for musicians to be concerned with the advantages and disadvantages of a such a product, if the marginal gain you get is worth the inevitable trade-offs and then compare it to the pros and cons of other types of bridges. But that was never going to happen… 

When marketing departments make up claims which aren't backed up with fact, surely it is the duty of those that know to call "cow poop".

It's all very well believing the marketing hype, but you have to remember that it is the job of the marketing department to sell you stuff you probably don't need.

I would say that if there is an improvement in sustain and a change in the clarity of the notes (note that I said change and not improvement here) it will be down to the fact that the engineering of these bridges reduces the movement of the saddles due to the plucking and vibrating of the strings, rather than the overall increase in mass. Of course it could just as easily be due to the fact that when someone swaps out the bridge on their bass they attach it to the body better than the original manufacturing process did with the original bridge. The fact is you simply don't know because the process has not been done in a proper scientific manner.

Ultimately if you believe it makes enough of a difference to be worthwhile spending the money, then fair enough, but I would suggest that any improvements are negligible, and certainly in a band mix imperceptible. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by BigRedX

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

On 11/06/2020 at 15:31, hooky_lowdown said:

What? Either something is intonated or its not, you don't get "better intonation". 😆

Except when the vintage bridge in question only has two saddles across four strings, but then I guess if you have one of those, you wouldn’t be putting a high mass bridge on it anyway.

[peteb]

39 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

How do you know that I'm just an "armchair expert" and not someone with with a physics degree in the relevant fields? You don't.

As it happens I don't have the correct degree, but I remember enough about physics from school to realise that most of the marketing claims about high-mass bridges are simply marketing claims and not backed up with real science. If someone does know the subject inside out is prepared to prove that I am wrong and back up their arguments with proper scientific facts to show it, then I'll be happy to be corrected.

But, AFAICS there has been zero scientific fact to contradict what I've said so far. 

When marketing departments make up claims which aren't backed up with fact, surely it is the duty of those that know to call "cow poop".

It's all very well believing the marketing hype, but you have to remember that it is the job of the marketing department to sell you stuff you probably don't need.

I would say that if there is an improvement in sustain and a change in the clarity of the notes (note that I said change and not improvement here) it will be down to the fact that the engineering of these bridges reduces the movement of the saddles due to the plucking and vibrating of the strings, rather than the overall increase in mass. 

Obviously, you have to take what some marketing campaigns say with a pinch of salt, but equally you don’t dismiss everything that they say out of hand. You have to evaluate what they claim in the light of your own practical knowledge and experience. Now I have been playing for a long time and a lot of my closest mates are professional musicians and sound engineers, as well as being friendly with a couple of well known luthiers. They will quite often talk about the pros and cons of various types of gear and I will listen and learn from what they have to say.

As far as the Hipshot marketing goes; it is hardly outlandish and stands up to scrutiny (as explained very clearly by Luke in a post above).  They provide a summary of why you might want to buy their product along side a summary of why you might not want to. It’s not exactly a hard sell is it? Now, I’ve owned a fair few Fenders over the past 40 years and I think that I have modded everyone that I’ve owned in one way or another. What Hipshot say about hi-mass bridges corresponds with my experience (also, their reasons why they might not be for you makes sense as well).

[drTStingray]

49 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

Except when the vintage bridge in question only has two saddles across four strings, but then I guess if you have one of those, you wouldn’t be putting a high mass bridge on it anyway.

It's a great surprise to me that, given the vintage vibe popularity, and the popularity of the idea 'Leo got it right first time' there isn't a market and clamour to retro fit basses with BBOT bridges with these first generation Fender bass bridges, warts and all 😬😂

Edited June 14, 2020 by drTStingray

[LukeFRC]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

I would say that if there is an improvement in sustain and a change in the clarity of the notes (note that I said change and not improvement here) it will be down to the fact that the engineering of these bridges reduces the movement of the saddles due to the plucking and vibrating of the strings, rather than the overall increase in mass.

Adding mass to one end of the string would be easy to test. Get a metal G clamp and fasten it to your headstock and see if added mass makes any difference. 
 

I think though, if we get away from the science side for a bit the better question is what do we prefer and why. I would say there are differences, but how pronounced it is depends on the player, the bass, the rig and so on. The other difference is usabilty. My Sadowsky bridge is easy to change string on, and the G&Lbridge has a grub screw hold everything in place. Thr bridge on my Warwick allows a massive amount of adjustment... it is possible that the use ability will be more important than minute tone differences when choosing a bridge 

[BigRedX]

3 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

Adding mass to one end of the string would be easy to test. Get a metal G clamp and fasten it to your headstock and see if added mass makes any difference. 

It's another of these situations where people have failed to realise that even the simplest of solid electric instruments  is in fact a very complex arrangement of parts that all act together in different ways, and that trying to isolate exactly what effect one component has on the sound is very difficult with a proper scientific methodology. 

So adding a G-clap to the headstock will make a difference (there is actually an after-market part called the Fat Finger to allows you to do just that in a reasonable aesthetically pleasing manner) but it tends to affect the resonance in the neck which is relatively flexible compared with the average body and is used to attempt to eliminate individual dead spots on a neck rather than add sustain. Adding weight to the body (in the region of the bridge) would be a more accurate way to ascertain this.

The proper scientific way to measure the effect of the mass of the bridge on a bass would be create various bridge plates that are all exactly the same size and shape but made of materials with different densities. Using the same saddles, height adjustment screws and intonation adjustment screws and spring each time. Of course first of all you would have to investigate if simply removing the original bridge and re-attaching it an number of times makes any difference on its own, before trying each bridge plate.

[alexfisher7]

so... here goes nothing..

I must admit I am a little buyist as I love the look of a hi mass but also it would never cross my mind to upgrade a bass which does not have one.

in terms of tonal atributs tho here is what I think.. I have seen many producers that record theyr own bass line with a cloth or a sponge tocked close to the bridge to dampen the transient on classic bridges and being the proud owner of my pj active deluxe fender, I do think that the hi mass bridge coupled with the tonal capacity of the eq keept me away from such practice. If you like the sound of your bass for the style you play, if it ain t broken, don t fix it. if you are a very versatil bass player how like to explore modern styles including r and b , hip hop and urban bass sound, I do recomend a modern enough bass that has a hi mass from the factory.. but again... that s just one man s opinion..

[diskwave]

I always get slammed for this but hey free speech an all. In my humble but experienced opinion aftermarket bridges are basically snake oil. Ive owned umpteen Fenders with tin bridges and they all had plenty of sustain and tone and even the 71 P I had with the bridge in the wrong place intonated perfectly......Iam yet to be convinced.

[BassAdder60]

Post resurrection!!!! 

I’ve just removed my HiMass bridge on my PBass and fitted the Hosco Vintage bridge with threaded saddles 

 

As long as the saddles stay put I’m going to do my other PBass too.

 

Very slight mark in the lacquer where the large HiMass was fitted but I’m hoping in time that will disappear?

 

In terms of tone .. same I guess but I can get action lower and it looks more like the original. Looks like my Vintera bass now too 

Edited September 3, 2023 by BassAdder60

[Geek99]

I think it makes a tiny difference, having tried it, but I’m not sure that the difference is worth the ££

[tony_m]

4 hours ago, BassAdder60 said:

Post resurrection!!!! 

I’ve just removed my HiMass bridge on my PBass and fitted the Hosco Vintage bridge with threaded saddles 

 

As long as the saddles stay put I’m going to do my other PBass too.

 

Very slight mark in the lacquer where the large HiMass was fitted but I’m hoping in time that will disappear?

 

In terms of tone .. same I guess but I can get action lower and it looks more like the original. Looks like my Vintera bass now too 

 

Obviously I don't know whether this sort of thing is important to you or not, but when I replaced the original brass saddles on my Wilkinson bridge with the threaded vintage-style jobbies as mentioned on your other thread, I also replaced the saddle screws so they didn't protrude quite as much, if at all.

 

The grub screws I used came from Model Fixings https://www.modelfixings.co.uk/cup_point_grub_screws.htm#M3 cup but I note yours have got slotted rather than hex heads, which isn't an option from Model Fixings - however, Spalding Fasteners do offer slot-heads https://www.spaldingfasteners.co.uk/m3-metric-a2-grade-stainless-steel-slotted-grub-screws/.

 

Can't remember what lengths I used now, but think it may have been 10mm for the A and D saddles, and slightly shorter (looking at them in situ, possibly 8mm) for the E and G saddles. Definitely looks neater without bits sticking out, and avoids the possibility of any annoying scratches and scrapes if you go in for palm-muting - I don't, so it's just for looks in my case. Gear Tart? Moi? 😁

 

[BassAdder60]

1 hour ago, tony_m said:

 

Obviously I don't know whether this sort of thing is important to you or not, but when I replaced the original brass saddles on my Wilkinson bridge with the threaded vintage-style jobbies as mentioned on your other thread, I also replaced the saddle screws so they didn't protrude quite as much, if at all.

 

The grub screws I used came from Model Fixings https://www.modelfixings.co.uk/cup_point_grub_screws.htm#M3 cup but I note yours have got slotted rather than hex heads, which isn't an option from Model Fixings - however, Spalding Fasteners do offer slot-heads https://www.spaldingfasteners.co.uk/m3-metric-a2-grade-stainless-steel-slotted-grub-screws/.

 

Can't remember what lengths I used now, but think it may have been 10mm for the A and D saddles, and slightly shorter (looking at them in situ, possibly 8mm) for the E and G saddles. Definitely looks neater without bits sticking out, and avoids the possibility of any annoying scratches and scrapes if you go in for palm-muting - I don't, so it's just for looks in my case. Gear Tart? Moi? 😁

 

Thanks, I’ve ordered some 8mm and 10mm slotted screws for spares etc and losing a bit of the height of screw sticking out. Good call thank you 

[tony_m]

31 minutes ago, BassAdder60 said:

Thanks, I’ve ordered some 8mm and 10mm slotted screws for spares etc and losing a bit of the height of screw sticking out. Good call thank you 

 

Hopefully M3 is the correct size for the Hosco saddles - I did have a look to see if the specs said anything different, but they didn't so fingers crossed they're the same size as the Wilkinsons!

[BassAdder60]

36 minutes ago, tony_m said:

 

Hopefully M3 is the correct size for the Hosco saddles - I did have a look to see if the specs said anything different, but they didn't so fingers crossed they're the same size as the Wilkinsons!

No worries.. they don’t cost much !! 
 

If they are it’s always handy to have spares 

[Fishfacefour]

How far can you shift the string spacing with the threaded saddles? 

Do they pop out at all? 

[JoeEvans]

I think that the difference, if there is one, might be in the rigidity of the bridge not the mass. The (original) bridge on my old Tokai is similar to an old fender bridge in that it's basically a piece of flat steel plate with a 90 degree bend in it. I suspect that this allows a tiny bit of flex, which slightly damps the vibrating strings. A high mass bridge is much more rigid.

[Reggaebass]

23 minutes ago, Fishfacefour said:

How far can you shift the string spacing with the threaded saddles? 

Do they pop out at all? 

I’ve got quite a few fenders with the threaded saddles, I’ve never gone wider than 19-20mm , I’d say you could go slightly more without the string moving 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Reggaebass

[bubinga5]

Bent bit of metal. Lets the tone from the instrument string resonate more with the body. All a high mass bridge does is is add weight, compress the tone and soak up vibration.  The greatest tone ive ever heard is the the threaded saddles on a Fender MIJ Jazz I had a while back. The best bit was I realised I could adjust the string spacing forget about fxxking high mass bridges and concentrate on my theory. 

[bubinga5]

40 minutes ago, Fishfacefour said:

How far can you shift the string spacing with the threaded saddles? 

Do they pop out at all? 

Depends if you have the hands of a Gorilla. and how hard you play. 16mm to 19mm. Just adapt.

[BassAdder60]

I’ve found the vintage threaded saddles very stable as you can use the threads to pull the saddle inwards slightly so they are squeezed together.

The Player series bridge saddles  move side to side and the screws wind undone from vibration ! 

[Baloney Balderdash]

I've watched a couple of comparison videos, comparing a wide range of high mass bridges with the simple stock old fashioned bend steel plate one, and my conclusion was that the stock one sounded better, the high mass bridges sounded too polite to my ears, like rounder, and with less attack, almost dull, whereas the stock old fashioned bend steel plate bridge had more attack and a more complex and lively tone.

 

Mind the tone difference was fairly subtle, but non the less it was definitely noticeable when the bass was played in isolation/solo. 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[WHUFC BASS]

Things that will make a difference to the sound of your bass ....

 

1. Pickup type

2. Pickup placement on your bass

3. EQ (from the amp or pedal)

4. Speaker and cab configuration

5. Strings and string type

6. Number of strings

7. Technique (finger, pick, slap etc.)

8. Scale length of bass neck (especially for 5-strings and down-tuners)

 

Things that will make no difference whatsoever to the sound of your bass

 

1. Body, neck, and fingerboard woods

2. Bridges (including type of metal used).

3. The colour

4. The strap

5. Your haircut/beard/tattoos

 

Bridges are purely functional, they anchor the strings to the body and should allow enough length to properly intonate the notes on the fingerboard. If the bridge you currently have won't lengthen or shorten the string then MAYBE it's worth looking at a replacement. You can argue all day long about sustain but who really needs that much sustain as a bass player? String through the body MAY produce slightly more sustain but I refer to my previous statement.

As for tone, in a blindfold test, could anybody really discern whether a track was recorded with a badass, BBOT or Hipshot? Brass, Aluminum, or alloy?  I very much doubt it.

If you aren't happy with the colour of the hardware then fill your boots, that's a perfectly legitimate reason for swapping out the bridge and tuners etc. but the bottom line is, if they're functional, there's really no need to swap them out IMO.

If anybody is willing to do a frequency response graph test by using the same bass, same amp setup/DI setup and strings and can demonstrate the frequency differences to swapping out BBOT for a hi-mass bridge then I'll listen but again I'll say, in the grand scheme of things, the differences are negligible IMO.

[MichaelDean]

2 hours ago, WHUFC BASS said:

You can argue all day long about sustain but who really needs that much sustain as a bass player? 

I do!

 

What if I want a note to ring out for 2/4/8/16 bars? I need the sustain for the music I play. I don't want a thumpy tone of flats and foam. Never have. Not sure if I'd even want to play the music that needs that tone. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by MichaelDean