External DI box / Live sound

[ClassicVibes]

What are the advantages to having an external DI box?

My chain is very basic: Bass, tuner, OD, amp.

I use the DI out on my amp and always select pre EQ so the FOH can do their thing. It also has a ground lift switch.

Would I gain anything from putting a DI box after the tuner and OD and sending the signal from there to FOH? 

[jrixn1]

The only things I can think of are:

• if your amp's DI is of particularly low quality - but a sound person would probably have complained to you by now
• your amp blows up in the middle of the set - with an external DI box, the signal to FOH is preserved.  (I did once have an amp die on me, at a wedding gig, during the first dance... 😟 )

[skidder652003]

Handy when your amp dies on it's bum, happened a few times to me, also great when you don't want to lug your amp to a gig and just use the PA

[ClassicVibes]

12 minutes ago, skidder652003 said:

Handy when your amp dies on it's bum, happened a few times to me, also great when you don't want to lug your amp to a gig and just use the PA

Provided the venue has monitors.

[ead]

I use a Radial device as the last bit of my signal chain (so after the effect I use on occasion).  This allows me to feed a signal to the desk so it can be EQed in the band context and a separate one to the backline that I can EQ for my personal use as a monitor without affecting the front of house sound.  At some point we will go 'in ear'.

https://www.radialeng.com/product/stagebug-sb2

[Lozz196]

I`ve found these useful when in a band that plays on multi-band bills where there are gear shares - if you get all your eq from a preamp/DI pedal then no matter what rig you use you can get your sound pretty quickly, plus be confident that FOH gets it too. Ok the provided rig may take some tweaking but it`s what`s out front that matters.

[Elfrasho]

One less thing to worry about. You get your sound directly to front of house. If the amp breaks, or even if you need to do some off the cuff eq changes mid set, it won't affect the foh. 

 

I know the Di from the amp could be pre eq, but still, i just like having no reliance on the amp, or my ability to change the settings quickly between tunes! 

[ribbetingfrog]

My band always play with their own PA system and monitors.

i only ever use a DI into the mixer .

saves having to lug a big heavy amp around.

 

My weapon of choice is the Orange Bass Butler, that saves me having to lug two amps around!

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by ribbetingfrog

[mike257]

4 hours ago, ClassicVibes said:

What are the advantages to having an external DI box?

My chain is very basic: Bass, tuner, OD, amp.

I use the DI out on my amp and always select pre EQ so the FOH can do their thing. It also has a ground lift switch.

Would I gain anything from putting a DI box after the tuner and OD and sending the signal from there to FOH? 

If you're playing in venues that have an in house system and an FOH, the FOH engineer may choose to chuck a DI box in there, but may be equally happy to use your amp's XLR out. I'll normally use one when I'm mixing a band I don't know, or a multi-band bill. Gives me consistency and takes an unknown/variable out of the equation. If I'm with a band that I'm touring with, I'll use any combination of pre and post effect DIs, amp DI and cab mics depending on what I feel is necessary to capture things effectively. 

If you do buy one, don't waste your money on a cheap Behringer etc. The absolute best budget boxes are from Orchid Electronics - a small UK builder, they'll do you a hand assembled great quality box for the price of an entry level unit from a big manufacturer. I've got half a dozen of their Micro DI and Classic DI in my touring kit, they're rock solid. 

[E sharp]

This sort of topic has come up on and off over the years on here .

I can see the logic on multi band nights , using a DI box for speed .

But as BigRedX (think that's the correct name) has said , they never do it with the guitar do they?

Why do us bass players have to put up with just a horrible DI only box sound (in most of these multi band dos) , and never a nice mic off our cabs?

Edited April 16, 2020 by E sharp
spelling

[jrixn1]

16 minutes ago, E sharp said:

Why do us bass players have to put up with just a horrible DI only box sound (in most of these multi band dos) , and never a nice mic off our cabs?

I don't have a horrible sound going through a DI box. Most guitarists I play with go directly to the desk via a Helix (i.e. no mic involved), and they sound great too.  Sorry to hear it hasn't worked for you.  What is your signal path?

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by jrixn1

[casapete]

9 hours ago, E sharp said:

This sort of topic has come up on and off over the years on here .

I can see the logic on multi band nights , using a DI box for speed .

But as BigRedX (think that's the correct name) has said , they never do it with the guitar do they?

Why do us bass players have to put up with just a horrible DI only box sound (in most of these multi band dos) , and never a nice mic off our cabs?

Our previous tech guy used to run my bass via the amp’s DI (GK1001RB) and also mic up my cab (GK Neo 410), using a mix of both I believe. When our current tech started , we did a few checks on the best way of doing it, and he settled on DI only, saying the difference was negligible. I ended up using a Sansamp BDDI for the FOH feed, with a Behringer BD121 as back up ( never needed yet). Sometimes we do gigs where I use other backline / quick changeovers and the Sansamp means one less thing for him to worry about.

[ClassicVibes]

I take it the Radial JDI is the industry standard for this sort of thing? 

[skidder652003]

13 minutes ago, ClassicVibes said:

I take it the Radial JDI is the industry standard for this sort of thing? 

possibly, but I read some reviews at Sound on Sound of the Orchid DI boxes and they compare very favourably against the Radial for a fraction of the price (and they're built here in Exeter!)

http://orchid-electronics.co.uk/Sound-On-Sound_Orchid_DI_Boxes_review.PDF

[ClassicVibes]

6 minutes ago, skidder652003 said:

possibly, but I read some reviews at Sound on Sound of the Orchid DI boxes and they compare very favourably against the Radial for a fraction of the price (and they're built here in Exeter!)

http://orchid-electronics.co.uk/Sound-On-Sound_Orchid_DI_Boxes_review.PDF

That brings me to my next question - active or passive DI box?

[skidder652003]

Just now, ClassicVibes said:

That brings me to my next question - active or passive DI box?

Noooooooo! Beyond my knowledge! I use an active one, well it's a tube preamp pedal with DI out actually so best to refer to expert opinion on here regards proper DI boxes, this thread has got me searching around for one for our guitarist.

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by skidder652003

[nilebodgers]

31 minutes ago, ClassicVibes said:

I take it the Radial JDI is the industry standard for this sort of thing? 

Most UK pro audio hire companies use either the BSS AR133 or KT DN100 as the general-purpose active DI. Both have top-notch signal paths and  proper shielded audio transformers and isolated phantom power supplies so true galvanic isolation can be achieved, something that can't be done with low cost active DIs (or even some expensive boutique ones).

[Adamparker]

I pretty much strictly run from a DI directly into my band's PA system. As others have alluded too, saves me lugging round a bass amp! 

I swear by my Eden WTDi personally. Tried a few, and it gives me everything I need with a built in compressor, 3-band EQ and ground lift. Bit less than £100 and relatively readily available second hand. 

[E sharp]

1 minute ago, Adamparker said:

I pretty much strictly run from a DI directly into my band's PA system. As others have alluded too, saves me lugging round a bass amp! 

I swear by my Eden WTDi personally. Tried a few, and it gives me everything I need with a built in compressor, 3-band EQ and ground lift. Bit less than £100 and relatively readily available second hand. 

I bought one of these a few years ago , and still have it boxed up.

Tried it again the other day straight into a power amp , then speaker .

It has a lovely sound (really nice) , but found that it doesn't like pedals before it at all - just seems to overload it way too much . And also that 12 or 15 volt power supply is a bit of a pain - why not 9 or 18 volt?

[jrixn1]

1 hour ago, ClassicVibes said:

That brings me to my next question - active or passive DI box?

 

18 hours ago, ClassicVibes said:

My chain is very basic: Bass, tuner, OD, amp.

The advantages of a passive DI are that it doesn't require a power supply, and there isn't a chance it will introduce noise.  However:

1. Is your bass passive?
2. Is your tuner true bypass?
3a. Is your OD true bypass?
3b. If yes, do you ever disengage the OD when playing?

If all four answers are 'yes', then your signal is not buffered and you might need an active DI.  The reason is that without a buffer, the PA might present too low an impedance to your pickups, resulting in a loss of high-end tone.  An active DI would introduce such a buffer.

Myself, I gig ampless and currently use a preamp pedal with a built-in (active) DI. Having said that, and reading back what I've written above - there was just the one gig where the sound guy was getting a small amount of noise at his end from my signal; he thought it was some sort of power supply interference, and in the end we just lived with it - but I wonder if I'd had a passive DI box to hand it would have helped?

Previous to that setup, I used a passive Radial.  I've only read good things about Orchid but aren't they all active with the only power options being phantom or a battery?  My concern would be, depending on the venue/desk/sound person's mood, can you guarantee you will always be supplied phantom; and for me at least I'm not powering any pedal with a battery as that's another thing to worry about. 

[tinyd]

I also have an aversion to carrying extra gear - I've been thinking about getting a small amp like a BAM200 and then using its DI for the FOH sound and a Phil Jones Ear Box for monitoring. Not sure how many of my gigs (remember those?) will work with this setup but it's certainly tempting in terms of size / weight.

[jrixn1]

16 minutes ago, tinyd said:

I also have an aversion to carrying extra gear - I've been thinking about getting a small amp like a BAM200 and then using its DI for the FOH sound and a Phil Jones Ear Box for monitoring. Not sure how many of my gigs (remember those?) will work with this setup but it's certainly tempting in terms of size / weight.

Move to in-ear monitoring - the ultimate sound quality to size/weight ratio!

[ClassicVibes]

58 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

 

The advantages of a passive DI are that it doesn't require a power supply, and there isn't a chance it will introduce noise.  However:

1. Is your bass passive?
2. Is your tuner true bypass?
3a. Is your OD true bypass?
3b. If yes, do you ever disengage the OD when playing?

If all four answers are 'yes', then your signal is not buffered and you might need an active DI.  The reason is that without a buffer, the PA might present too low an impedance to your pickups, resulting in a loss of high-end tone.  An active DI would introduce such a buffer.

Myself, I gig ampless and currently use a preamp pedal with a built-in (active) DI. Having said that, and reading back what I've written above - there was just the one gig where the sound guy was getting a small amount of noise at his end from my signal; he thought it was some sort of power supply interference, and in the end we just lived with it - but I wonder if I'd had a passive DI box to hand it would have helped?

Previous to that setup, I used a passive Radial.  I've only read good things about Orchid but aren't they all active with the only power options being phantom or a battery?  My concern would be, depending on the venue/desk/sound person's mood, can you guarantee you will always be supplied phantom; and for me at least I'm not powering any pedal with a battery as that's another thing to worry about. 

1. Yes

2. Yes

3a. Yes

3b. No

So would active DI be the way to go?

Out of curiosity, if I had an active bass, what difference would that make?

[jrixn1]

An active bass or an engaged pedal will provide a buffer.  Personally I would look at passive DI box as it's simpler to power, and will eliminate noise.