Are we all using the wrong tuning?

[Leowasright]

Seems straightforward to me. If you play with guitarists, who also bottom out on an E, you do not neet a lower tuning at all.

If you play with keyboards, there [i][/i]might[i][/i] be a case to use BEAD.

In my case, I play with two guitarists, so I have no need at all.

And I don't want a 5/6/8/12/ *other insane number of strings* string bass.

[johnnylager]

[quote]Are we all using the wrong tuning?[/quote]
No, keyboard players are.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='johnnylager' post='410709' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:20 AM']No, keyboard players are.[/quote]


I used to always use a bass tuned DGCF when I was in a band with a keyboard player, and that was great once I'd got my head around it. A few months ago, I had a go on bass_ferret's KSD 4 string which is tuned BEAD and it played and sounded absolutely fine..

[johnnylager]

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='410726' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:54 AM']

I used to always use a bass tuned DGCF when I was in a band with a keyboard player, and that was great once I'd got my head around it. A few months ago, I had a go on bass_ferret's KSD 4 string which is tuned BEAD and it played and sounded absolutely fine..[/quote]
That doesn't make it right.

[clauster]

I went BEAD for a while early last year, when I had two very loud touretting guitards in the band - It was great having a bit of space that was all my own.

Since coming down to one guitar, I've had to go back to EADG to help thicken up the guitar sound here and there.

[Bilbo]

Pete's tuning idea is one I have thought about for a long time but never actually done anything with. I have a six I don't like playing and would trade it for a 5 but no takers so I thought, what if I tuned my 4 BEAD and worked from there? The questions about neck tension and intonation, however, created what we in the trade call 'the dither' and nothing ever happened. Because I mainly (90%) do jazz gigs, its not a big deal (those low Bs are more a rock/pop/funk thing). I had one gig where I needed the low B but lost that to Mike Mondesir!

[bass_ferret]

Like Nik says I have strung my KSD BEAD and nobody died! I must admit I have not played it enough to know whether its a good idea. We play a lot of songs tuned down a tone so I have one bass in regular and my fretless tuned DGCF but the fretless does not sound right on some of the songs (the ones where I sing and drift out of tune ) We dont practice enough for me to try the BEAD bass on lots of songs and the detuned songs change every gig - singers eh!

Last gig he played the detuned guitar all night!

[Dr.Dave]

I'm with Ross. Good to try new tunings etc and for the sake of a different nut it can all go back to normal painlessly should it not work out. Play about and see what works for you. No reason I can see to call this one as a 'better' or 'worse' - just an option.

[lowdown]

[quote name='pete.young' post='410505' date='Feb 15 2009, 09:58 PM']often because our singer's voice range isn't quite there for Aretha and we end up dropping a semitone or two.[/quote]

Getting a new singer might solve your problems.

I feel some of those old soul tunes just dont work in other keys. [ on Bass ]
I've just got so used to 'THAT' sound over the years,
it just sounds odd, Unless you are going to do a complete revamp of that tune.




Garry

Edited February 16, 2009 by lowdown

[spinynorman]

If it was just down to what I need, I could manage with EAD and 12 frets.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Josh' post='410562' date='Feb 15 2009, 10:37 PM']I'm an advocate for playing in lower tunings, since trying it propely almost over a year ago I have pretty much fully adjusted to it and I don't regret it all. Anyone who still thinks that tuning low is purely for metal truely need to pull their head out of their ass.[/quote]

+1

I use a 5 string bass, i don't often use the higher string but i like to know it's there! It can be useful for the odd bass solo part or 2. As for tunings our band play songs in C tuning so i've actually started to tune GCGCF. It's great having that lower tuning because i've started writing songs in G tuning, believe it or not and also it's good for filling in the bass on Bb because the guitar doesn't go that low.

The useful thing about BEAD and that i found with my 5 string would be that if you play songs in a lot of different tunings it's a lot more versitile because you can go from E standard right down to B or even A if you want to so no need to keep swapping basses.

Edited February 16, 2009 by EdwardHimself

[alexclaber]

Grant from Toupé now often plays a four rather than a six, but tuned BEGC!

One thing I rather like about having a little extra lower range is that it tends to put my guitarist and I about two octaves apart, which leaves a handy space in the middle for my vocals.

Alex

[Mr. Foxen]

I went from standard tuning when lerning, to playing with a blues guitarist who detuned a semitone to be more like SRV, to playing with a guitarist in drop D (so I tuned DGCF) to now using ADGC. As a result of this, I have no clue about where notes are on the fingerboard any more, and think in intervals. None of the rest of the band do notes either, so its fine.

[ped]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='410969' date='Feb 16 2009, 12:37 PM']Grant from Toupé now often plays a four rather than a six, but tuned BEGC!

One thing I rather like about having a little extra lower range is that it tends to put my guitarist and I about two octaves apart, which leaves a handy space in the middle for my vocals.

Alex[/quote]

Toupe are brilliant! So is he using his older Pedulla 4 string now?

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='Zach' post='410645' date='Feb 16 2009, 12:00 AM']Just to throw a bit of crazy out there, why don't we tune in 5ths? Unless I'm mistaken most string instruments to that, except of course guitar and double bass. Anyone know why this is?[/quote]

Discussed here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=27890&hl=tuning+in+fifths"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...uning+in+fifths[/url]

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='spinynorman' post='410935' date='Feb 16 2009, 12:11 PM']If it was just down to what I need, I could manage with EAD and 12 frets.[/quote]

Tony Levin went there with his (now burnt) Stingray 3. EAD, it was. Now that's a Custom instrument!

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Zach' post='410645' date='Feb 16 2009, 12:00 AM']Just to throw a bit of crazy out there, why don't we tune in 5ths?[/quote]
[quote name='Matty' post='410651' date='Feb 16 2009, 12:12 AM']Its tuned in fourths because on a double bass, the stretches would be near impossible for the music being produced at the time.

I have a 4 string tuned to BEAD and a four string tuned CGDA and both are great fun to play and both have their uses.[/quote]
Indeed, fifths make scales an absolute swine, and if you're playing anything you haven't written specifically for fifths tuning, chances are you'll be up and down the neck like an erotic massage.

But to expand on what Matty said, it has its uses -- the range it opens up is awesome. Just as a little example, if you think about major chords, in standard tuning you've got, say, A major:
G:--6-- (note = C#)
D:--7-- (note = A)
A:--7-- (note = E)
E:--5-- (note = A)
which is a reasonably open voicing, but the major third at the top can sound a bit dense if you're actually playing all the notes together. If you tune C-G-D-A, you've got a really open chord at your fingertips:
A:--12-- (note = A)
D:--11-- (note = C#)
G:--9--- (note = E)
C:--9--- (note = A)
You're covering two octaves in a three-fret spread, which leaves plenty of space for the notes to "breathe". And if you're writing your own riffs, you end up naturally falling into intervals and patterns that sound unlike anyone else.

In summary, brilliant for creativity, painful for walking lines. And fifths feel pretty natural if you've been playing a drop tuning for a while -- you just extend that feel across all the strings, rather than just the low two.

(I know fifths have had their own thread, but this felt like a more appropriate place to throw this in at the moment.)

[mrcrow]

[url="http://www.soundjunction.org/thedoublebasstuning.aspa?NodeID=0"]long time ago[/url]
bassists used to switch between instruments and playing venue
full orchestral players doing jazz clubs and getting involved with the electric bass
so.....
the tunings stayed

[ARGH]

[url="http://www.jauqoiii-x.com/"]http://www.jauqoiii-x.com/[/url]

This guy tunes LOOOOOOOOOWWWW

Nice bloke too,been about,done stuff....

[pete.young]

Some very informative and unexpectedly thoughtful replies in this thread. What a great community this is.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='410588' date='Feb 15 2009, 11:00 PM']Note that plenty of organ music goes lower than 5-string basses do, the pipe organ having long been excellent at delivering big low notes in a musical way, so lower tunings on bass guitars shouldn't be seen as a fad but as the inevitable result of technology allowing bass players to get the sound they want.[/quote]

From my own experience, I know that an Eb Tuba will comfortably go lower than a bass guitar even in the hands of a tubahacker like me, and a Bb or C tuba (or an Eb in the hands of a PROPER player) even more so!
[quote]The issue I have with BEAD tuning is that a 34" scale rarely results in an instrument that can make good use of that low B string throughout its range. If you dare go a bit longer the difference in tone and playability is radical.[/quote]

This hits the nail on the head. My BEAD bass is a Bass Collection, and I think it's just about coping but would benefit from a longer scale to give a bit more string tension and/or string through. It would be interesting to find out whether it's easier to cope with a longer scale length or a wider fretboard. Are there any 35" 4-string basses? And isn't this just as much of a concern with a 5-string?

[Mr. Foxen]

I think the older Traben 4 strings were 35" scale, they do exist.

[6stringbassist]

My Sei 6 is a 34" scale, the B is perfect.

Steve Lawson played it recently and commented on what a nice B string it had, he actually thought it was a 35"scale bass.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='pete.young' post='411483' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:55 PM']Are there any 35" 4-string basses?[/quote]
I was wondering exactly the same thing recently. I ended up with the following list of budget 35" 4-stringers:
Peavey Cirrus BXP
ESP LTD F Series
Ibanez BTB range
HK / Woodo (or whatever name's on the headstock) 4-stringers

But like 6stringbassist says, a good 34" can have a beautiful B. Every bass is different, and some 34"s have that magic combination of factors that gives a clear, powerful B. In my (limited) experience, they tend to cost more.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='jansenh' post='410575' date='Feb 15 2009, 10:45 PM']Makes perfect sense to me. I play thrash metal with bases tuned C-F-A#-D# (yes I know its wierd, but it works for me...). I used to play a 5-string for this, but didnt really like it. Tried B-E-A-D as well, but C is as far down as I need to go. AND more important, a C-F-A#-D# does'nt need really heavy strings. I use a 115-110-90-75 setup. ( I cannot stand drop variants, btw)[/quote]

It's C-F-Bb-Eb as it's tuned in 4ths. The notes are the same (called enharmonic) but using #'s or b's implies different tonalities.

Using a reverse headstock gives the B a longer span and better tension, but I had no probs with my old MM Sub which I tuned BEAD. Plenty of bottom end from the B and it was passive.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='pete.young' post='411483' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:55 PM']From my own experience, I know that an Eb Tuba will comfortably go lower than a bass guitar even in the hands of a tubahacker like me, and a Bb or C tuba (or an Eb in the hands of a PROPER player) even more so![/quote]

Lowest note on an Eb tuba is Eb one semitone below that of a 4-string bass, lowest note on a Bb contrabass tuba is one semitone below that of a 5-string bass. So neither really go lower in terms of the note than a bass guitar can. However, the bass guitar is a transposing instrument where you transpose an octave so I think written scores may incorrectly suggest the tuba goes a lot lower.

When it comes to the actually frequency content of the note, the horn of a tuba is far too small to support any audible output on the low note fundamentals, to an even greater degree than how an amplified bass guitar is short of low note fundamentals. Looking at the size of the horn I'd expect very little from a tuba below 100Hz whilst a decent bass guitar and amp will get down to about 50Hz. Pipe organ still rules for low frequency output!

Alex