EU artists will need a VISA to perform in UK from 2021

[ambient]

9 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

So how long does a return trip by train to Germany take? I find it hard to believe it's going to be cheaper than Easy Jet? Another factor to consider if this is boiling down to economics.

Eurostar to Brussels is a couple of hours, then Thalys to Germany is another hour or so. My trip to Paris a fortnight ago was £36 return. My trip to Stockholm cost me £70 return. I could have flown, my university was paying. They were really happy when I said I’d rather go by train. My friend is currently playing and doing some bass masterclasses in Italy, he’s gone by train. My friend who’s a cellist played in Portugal with Gavin Bryars last year, she went by train. Like I say, there’s no hassle with your gear, it’s city centre to city centre. It’s so easy. It’s not just economics though, that’s what I was saying on here a few hours ago, it’s the cross pollination of ideas, actually meeting people from other countries and playing together, or just seeing first hand what they’re doing.

[Al Krow]

9 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

and yes, it’s quite clearly a removal. It’s the removal of the right to live and work in the EU. From now on, we won’t have the right, we will have to ask permission. 

Correct. We've essentially traded that right for the right to have a say who our neighbours here in the UK are going to be, in the broad sense, and to give equal opportunity to both Kiwi and Croat.  Seems fair enough. 

[Al Krow]

6 minutes ago, ambient said:

Eurostar to Brussels is a couple of hours, then Thalys to Germany is another hour or so. My trip to Paris a fortnight ago was £36 return. My trip to Stockholm cost me £70 return. I could have flown, my university was paying. They were really happy when I said I’d rather go by train. My friend is currently playing and doing some bass masterclasses in Italy, he’s gone by train. My friend who’s a cellist played in Portugal with Gavin Bryars last year, she went by train. Like I say, there’s no hassle with your gear, it’s city centre to city centre. It’s so easy. It’s not just economics though, that’s what I was saying on here a few hours ago, it’s the cross pollination of ideas, actually meeting people from other countries and playing together, or just seeing first hand what they’re doing.

That's good to know on the train front. But this whole thread is about economics ie the fact that the cost of visas is going to be a deterrent to the itenerant bard. 

[Lozz196]

30 minutes ago, ambient said:

I travel by train 😁. Most people I know do, it’s cheaper, easier, they don’t make a fuss about gear, and it’s green.

On the gigs which we did in Europe where we just needed guitars we flew. I wish we’d taken the train, both for the above reasons and, much like Mr T, I hate flying.

[peteb]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Correct. We've essentially traded that right for the right to have a say who our neighbours here in the UK are going to be, in the broad sense, and to give equal opportunity to both Kiwi and Croat.  Seems fair enough. 

The issue is that I've been offered gigs in northern Europe. I've never been offered gigs in New Zealand or the far east and I never will. 

[ambient]

Just now, Al Krow said:

That's good to know on the train front. But this whole thread is about economics ie the fact that the cost of visas is going to be a deterrent to the itenerant bard. 

It’s not just that though. For someone to come here and play, they need a certificate of sponsorship. That has to be issued by an approved and licensed promoter or organiser. How many organisers are going to do that? There’s thousands of creative and artistic events take place every year across the UK, they’re mostly done by independent organisers, with little or no budget. They’re not going to get licensed or officially approved, therefore the guy coming from Amsterdam with his MacBook and midi controller won’t be able to come. 

[ambient]

6 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

On the gigs which we did in Europe where we just needed guitars we flew. I wish we’d taken the train, both for the above reasons and, much like Mr T, I hate flying.

Seriously, it’s so easy. The last few times I’ve just taken a MacBook and various controllers for Ableton. I have taken a bass and an effects board, plus luggage all without a problem. My friend took a contrabassoon to a show we both played in Paris before Christmas.

Check the stripped down rig Steve Lawson has taken with him to Italy by train.

Edited February 21, 2020 by ambient

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, peteb said:

The issue is that I've been offered gigs in northern Europe. I've never been offered gigs in New Zealand or the far east and I never will. 

There are going to be winners and losers when change happens. It's the way of things. The nimble see opportunities, others see crisis. We're about to embark on some major changes as a nation, that's not in dispute; no point screaming at the tide not to come in. 

[DoubleOhStephan]

5 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

If you don’t mind... what about the rest of that don’t live in your fantasy world and have to deal with reality rather than what you think will happen? 

I don't mind.

I've already said what I think will happen, the whole global trade deal thing with the US & Asia, the collapse of the bloc and eventual end of EU. 

16 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

and yes, it’s quite clearly a removal. It’s the removal of the right to live and work in the EU. From now on, we won’t have the right, we will have to ask permission. 

Its a loss of a privilege, you still have the right to live and work in Europe. Asking for permission isn't a bad thing. 

[ambient]

1 hour ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Yes

I did... 

 

What will they do with the specialist breeds? For many their market is the EU, if they can’t sell it there, then they’ll go bust. They also have only a very short space of time to introduce these special breeds; and don’t say they’ve had three years, because Br@@@ has so far been a red, white and blue thing, it’s been something where nothing much will change, it’s been something where we hold all the cards, it’s been oven-ready, yet they still can’t say with 100% certainly what it will be.

[peteb]

48 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

There are going to be winners and losers when change happens. It's the way of things. The nimble see opportunities, others see crisis. We're about to embark on some major changes as a nation, that's not in dispute; no point screaming at the tide not to come in. 

No, people like me (and probably you) will be losers while the winners will be those who run hedge funds. This is the death of ambition for ordinary people and there is no upside for you and me. 

The whole thing will eventually collapse as it becomes apparent that the UK cannot prosper on its own as it is rapidly overtaken by the many developing Asian and South American economies and we will be forced back into orbit with our closest \ natural allies. Of course the damage to the living standards of normal British people will already be done...

Edited February 22, 2020 by peteb

[Al Krow]

16 minutes ago, ambient said:

What will they do with the specialist breeds? For many their market is the EU, if they can’t sell it there, then they’ll go bust. They also have only a very short space of time to introduce these special breeds; and don’t say they’ve had three years, because Br@@@ has so far been a red, white and blue thing, it’s been something where nothing much will change, it’s been something where we hold all the cards, it’s been oven-ready, yet they still can’t say with 100% certainly what it will be.

Trouble is the dire warnings from the Treasury, IMF and BofE at the time have been shown to be a long way from reality and many of these so called experts are rapidly changing their tune (IMF - "UK will outpace Eurozone this year and next"; "could be some real upside" - Mark Carney last month).

Exports to the EU account for just 8% of our economy. We run a £70 billion trade deficit every year with our EU neighbours and they get most of the fish in our fisheries. And import substitution works both ways. Going forward we won't have to have tariffs on the rest of the worlds goods and services any higher than we have with our EU neighbours - that's a real level playing field! You'll have read just today that the EU are struggling to even agree a budget, that's partly because they are missing Eur 75 billion from the UK over the next 7 years. And we will be able to pay our farmers what we like to cushion the transition - remember we're gonna have a spare Eur 75 billion in our back pocket for exactly such contingencies.

So I think you're being far too pessimistic; but then you'll have probably gathered by now I'm a glass half full sort of guy!

1 minute ago, peteb said:

No, people like me (and probably you) will be losers while the winners will be those who run hedge funds. This is the death of ambition for ordinary people and there is no upside for you and me. 

The whole thing will eventually collapse as it becomes apparent that the UK cannot prosper on its own as it is rapidly overtaken by the many developoing Asian and South American economies and will be forced back into orbit with its closest \ natural allies. Of course the damage to the living standards of normal British people will already be done...

See my post just above  

Edited February 22, 2020 by Al Krow

[peteb]

9 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Trouble is the dire warnings from the Treasury, IMF and BofE at the time have been shown to be a long way from reality and many of these so called experts are rapidly changing their tune (IMF - "UK will outpace Eurozone this year and next"; "could be some real upside" - Mark Carney last month).

Exports to the EU account for just 8% of our economy. We run a £70 billion trade deficit every year with our EU neighbours and they get most of the fish in our fisheries. And import substitution works both ways. Going forward we won't have to have tariffs on the rest of the worlds goods and services any higher than we have with our EU neighbours - that's a real level playing field! You'll have read just today that the EU are struggling to even agree a budget, that's partly because they are missing Eur 75 billion from the UK over the next 7 years. And we will be able to pay our farmers what we like to cushion the transition - remember we're gonna have a spare Eur 75 billion in our back pocket for exactly such contingencies.

So I think you're being far too pessimistic; but then you'll have probably gathered by now I'm a glass half full sort of guy!

See my post just above  

You may be a glass half full guy, but neither the less my point about being over taken by developing nations still stands. Ask yourself this question, is there any reason at all that a British office or factory worker should have a better standard of living or better working conditions than an Indonesian worker doing a similar job once we leave the single market??

[DoubleOhStephan]

23 minutes ago, ambient said:

What will they do with the specialist breeds? For many their market is the EU, if they can’t sell it there, then they’ll go bust. They also have only a very short space of time to introduce these special breeds; 

You do understand that I'm not an expert on the British agriculture industry?

Either way, diversification and/or specialisation seems to be the current order of the day, farmers are already changing their business models to adapt to the changing times. Plenty are already doing it very successfully, plenty more will follow, plenty of others will fail. 

40 minutes ago, ambient said:

Br@@@ has so far been a red, white and blue thing, it’s been something where nothing much will change, it’s been something where we hold all the cards, it’s been oven-ready, yet they still can’t say with 100% certainly what it will be.

Ok

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Correct. We've essentially traded that right for the right to have a say who our neighbours here in the UK are going to be, in the broad sense, and to give equal opportunity to both Kiwi and Croat.  Seems fair enough. 

We haven't got the right to say who our neighbours are. I wouldn't ahve picked any of my neighbours.

31 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Exports to the EU account for just 8% of our economy.

where are those figures from??

Exports to the EU are over 40% of our total exports, and when you could countries we have a free trade deal with through the eu it is way over 50%.

31 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

We run a £70 billion trade deficit every year with our EU neighbours and they get most of the fish in our fisheries.

we do, but that isn't down to one country. There is no individual country we have a trade deficit with.

Our EU neighbours get most of our fish, because we sell it to them because we don't eat  it.

 

31 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

And import substitution works both ways. Going forward we won't have to have tariffs on the rest of the worlds goods and services any higher than we have with our EU neighbours - that's a real level playing field! 

Yay, so everything is more expensive but noone has an advantage. What a bonus.

Shame they are the people that we trade with the most.

 

31 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

You'll have read just today that the EU are struggling to even agree a budget, that's partly because they are missing Eur 75 billion from the UK over the next 7 years. And we will be able to pay our farmers what we like to cushion the transition - remember we're gonna have a spare Eur 75 billion in our back pocket for exactly such contingencies.

No we aren't. We have already lost more money than we ever paid the EU.

I really don't understand peoples ideas of markets. Are we really such a stupid country that we were paying billions in to a market that we weren't getting more out. I am surprised anyone runs a shop here. Because it costs money to rent a shop, and that seems to be the only financial agreement that people understand.

31 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

So I think you're being far too pessimistic; but then you'll have probably gathered by now I'm a glass half full sort of guy!

See my post just above  

I gather you are fantasy land sort of guy!

[Al Krow]

@Woodinblack Morning fella!

When I say "choose our neighbours" I was using the phrase metaphorically. In plain English: the existing inhabitants of every nation in the world have the right to determine their immigration policy. That is a fundamental character of nationhood. It is only the members of the EU that have waived that right under FoM. The consent of the British people was never sought when FoM was granted in the first place; an act of massive arrogance on the part of our ruling class which has led directly to where we are today.

You know that I defer to you on all matters engineering and electronics but I'm afraid I think you have missed the point on the economics e.g. yes exports to the EU may account for 40% of our exports, but what proportion of total UK economic activity do total exports account for? It's not 100% or anything close is it? We do a great deal else in the UK besides just export. (So if all exports are 20% of UK GDP then exports to the EU are 8% of UK GDP).

Similarly a comment like everything will be more expensive, well no! We get to choose, so we can drop import duties on goods and services from the rest of the world if we want to. Britain will now get to decide what works best for its economy and no longer have to put 30% tariffs on certain goods just so that this helps workers in e.g. southern Europe. 

7 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

I really don't understand peoples ideas of markets.

Agreed.

Just check what has happened to the Italian economy in the last 20 years due to its membership of the Eurozone.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Al Krow

[ambient]

11 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@Woodinblack Morning!

When I say "choose our neighbours" I was using the phrase metaphorically.

In plain English: the existing inhabitants of every nation in the world have the right to determine their immigration policy. That is a fundamental character of nationhood.

It is only the members of the EU that have waived that right under FoM. The consent of the British people was never sought when FoM was granted in the first place; an act of massive arrogance on the part of our ruling class which has led directly to where we are today.

Hey, dear chap, I'm afraid the rest of your post has also missed the mark on the economics e.g. yes exports to the EU may account for 40% of our exports, but what proportion of total UK economic activity do total exports account for? It's not 100% or anything close is it? We do a great deal else in the UK besides just export.

Similarly a comment like everything will be more expensive, well no! We get to choose, so we can drop import duties on goods and services from the rest of the world if we want to. Britain will now get to decide what works best for its economy and no longer have to put 30% tariffs on certain goods just so that this helps workers in eg southern Europe. 

Have you asked UK farmers about dropping import duties? 

[Leonard Smalls]

9 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Britain will now get to decide what works best for its economy and no longer have to put 30% tariffs on certain goods just so that this helps workers in eg southern Europe. 

What about putting on tariffs to help workers on, say, farms in Norfolk? 

Though I suspect that this government (though this is more than a suspicion!) are so free market obsessed that help won't be forthcoming to those who lose out as a result of the self-inflicted free-for-all. After all, it's survival of the fittest, eh? They'll have to adapt or die! Which isn't the sort of message that you want to hear if you've sunk all your savings into getting a thriving business going trading with our nearest neighbours over the space of 40 years only to discover that you have no idea whether you can profitably carry on that trade...

[Al Krow]

6 minutes ago, ambient said:

Have you asked UK farmers about dropping import duties? 

Oh dear: one of you is worried that we will have to pay more and the other about paying less!

There are there are going to be winners and losers when change happens. It's the way of things. The nimble see opportunities, others see crisis. We're about to embark on some major changes as a nation, that's not in dispute; no point screaming at the tide not to come in. 

That really is the crux of my position.

Right time to be nimble and spend some time on the fretboard  

Edited February 22, 2020 by Al Krow

[ambient]

I think this thread is becoming rather pointless. It’s veered off track so much. As with this everything else with Brexit, two sides with very entrenched views. Here though, you have musicians and artists who have got experience of performing and working across borders, being told they’re wrong, by people who have absolutely zilch experience or ambition of doing so. 
 

What bands did forty years ago, has absolutely no bearing on what artists do now. 

[Leonard Smalls]

3 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

The nimble see opportunities, others see crisis. 

Indeed... This is the sort of devil take the hindmost attitude that has seen so many cuts in funding to the most in-need. 

But then, I'm alright Jack!

 

[Al Krow]

9 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

Indeed... This is the sort of devil take the hindmost attitude that has seen so many cuts in funding to the most in-need. 

But then, I'm alright Jack!

Nope that is not the attitude I would sign up for at all.

Being nimble and making the most of opportunities - yes! Making sure you take care of your countrymen who are left behind through no fault of their own, for whatever reason - also yes! (See my earlier comment about having Eur 75 billion in our back pocket to smooth the transition).

We are already changing the basis on which we support our farmers. The NFU has given this a massive thumbs up - and everyone is agreed there is no way that this new policy which is going to be good for farmers and the environment could have been put in place whilst we had to obey the dictat of the CAP. It's already one of the best things to have emerged in the last 4 weeks.

[Pseudonym]

8 minutes ago, ambient said:

I think this thread is becoming rather pointless. It’s veered off track so much. As with this everything else with Brexit, two sides with very entrenched views. Here though, you have musicians and artists who have got experience of performing and working across borders, being told they’re wrong, by people who have absolutely zilch experience or ambition of doing so. 
 

What bands did forty years ago, has absolutely no bearing on what artists do now. 

Ambient, my friend, I don't think the polarisation with diminish anytime soon, and I don't think your life is likely to align successfully with the policies that the UK has decided to pursue.

Much as I love Britain and sometimes miss it terribly, I no longer contemplate going back -- and I live in the Cheeseburger Republic. For people who operate primarily in the realm of information-rich creative innovation, there is little need to be tied to one locale. There's still room at the top.

[ambient]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Nope that is not the attitude I would sign up for at all.

Being nimble and making the most of opportunities - yes! Making sure you take care of your countrymen who are left behind through no fault of their own, for whatever reason - also yes! (See my earlier comment about having Eur 75 billion in our back pocket to smooth the transition).

We are already changing the basis on which we support our farmers. The NFU has given this a massive thumbs up - and everyone is agreed there is no way that this new policy which is going to be good for farmers and the environment could have been put in place whilst we had to obey the dictat of the CAP. It's already one of the best things to have emerged in the last 4 weeks.

But we won’t necessarily have €75 billion to spend; a figure that ignores by the way, our rebate, it also ignores what we’d have got back in grants and other payments, but just because we would have paid it, that doesn’t mean that we’ll have it to spend.

[mentalextra]

15 minutes ago, ambient said:

I think this thread is becoming rather pointless. It’s veered off track so much. As with this everything else with Brexit, two sides with very entrenched views. Here though, you have musicians and artists who have got experience of performing and working across borders, being told they’re wrong, by people who have absolutely zilch experience or ambition of doing so. 
 

What bands did forty years ago, has absolutely no bearing on what artists do now. 

Sad but true. As much as I have enjoyed the debate, your concerns are constantly being side-stepped in favour of the usual cut & paste stuff, and we are just going round in circles.