EU artists will need a VISA to perform in UK from 2021

[kyuuga]

Not sure where I'd post this but since this is huge news for us musicians I figured I'd create a topic.

According to the source below, the UK government will require a "Tier 5 visa in order to perform in the U.K., take part in competitions or auditions, participate in promotional activities, attend workshops, give talks about their work, and take part in cultural events or festivals."

Obviously if that happens I doubt the EU will let it go scot-free and will probably enforce the same laws on UK citizens (which means any UK musicians will need a VISA to tour Europe...)

What's your take on this?

SOURCE: https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-touring-artists-will-need-visas-to-perform-in-the-uk-from-2021

[Happy Jack]

Well obviously those awful foreigners keep coming over here and taking all the well-paid gigs away from talented-but-starving hard-working BRITISH people who have paid for the social services and stuff that they want to nick and take back to foreign-land with them when they steal all our best tunes and leave talented-but-starving musical geniuses to rot in garrets while they take all the cash which should have been ours but it's OK cos we're going to kick out Johnny Foreigner and tow Britain out into mid-Atlantic where we can become the first-choice trading partner with North Korea and Peru.

 

[mentalextra]

Just now, Happy Jack said:

Well obviously those awful foreigners keep coming over here and taking all the well-paid gigs away from talented-but-starving hard-working BRITISH people who have paid for the social services and stuff that they want to nick and take back to foreign-land with them when they steal all our best tunes and leave talented-but-starving musical geniuses to rot in garrets while they take all the cash which should have been ours but it's OK cos we're going to kick out Johnny Foreigner and tow Britain out into mid-Atlantic where we can become the first-choice trading partner with North Korea and Peru.

 

Only the ‘clever’ ones earning more than 26k?

[Owen]

Sux. We are in a slow motion car crash being driven by a government who are only out for themselves and their mates. We have an impotent opposition and a media which is rubbing it's hands with glee cos they are getting their way. There, I got political.  

Edited February 20, 2020 by owen

[Al Krow]

Out of interest, what's the position for non EU musicians coming to the UK / EU currently e.g. from the US and the rest of the world: do they need visas?

Has that led to the death of music, or have folk just got a visa? 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Al Krow

[peteb]

The issue is that the EU will reciprocate and UK musos will need Visa/ carnets to play on the mainland. I know plenty of pros who make a lot of their income by popping over to Europe several times a year, who will be pretty much out of business in a year's time. 

[MacDaddy]

12 minutes ago, peteb said:

The issue is that the EU will reciprocate and UK musos will need Visa/ carnets to play on the mainland. I know plenty of pros who make a lot of their income by popping over to Europe several times a year, who will be pretty much out of business in a year's time. 

Why? Will they be unable to get a visa? I would assume any cost would be tax deductible?

[peteb]

29 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Out of interest, what's the position for non EU musicians coming to the UK / EU currently e.g. from the US and the rest of the world: do they need visas?

Has that led to the death of music, or have folk just got a visa? 

The answer is yes they do, which is why you don't see too many touring at club level unless they have a  bit of organisational backing or money behind them. 

The other factor is that you generally don't make money from touring the UK at club level, whereas you do in Europe. It is very worrying for some of my pro mates who are wondering how they are going to make a living. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by peteb

[peteb]

24 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

Why? Will they be unable to get a visa? I would assume any cost would be tax deductible?

I don't know the specifics, but they are very concerned. Apparently, bookers are already looking for alternatives to UK acts, as it will just be easier and cheaper to book European bands. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by peteb

[pete.young]

Needing a Carnet to take your equipment is going to be huge PITA in its own right.

[Al Krow]

26 minutes ago, peteb said:

I don't know the specifics but they are concerned. Apparently, bookers are already looking for alternatives to UK acts, as it will just be easier and cheaper to book European bands. 

Are European bands just as good? If you're selling a thousand tickets, the cost of visas is likely to be marginal: can't imagine a booking agent will prefer worse acts if tickets don't sell? 

Besides less international travel, particularly flights, is better for the environment, which is a good thing right? 

Going to boil down to how much Europeans are going to charge Brits for visas and how long a visa will last for. (Clearly the UK is not going to be making much money from issuing visas to EU bands, if not many of them are likely to be coming over here as there's no money to be made). 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Al Krow

[peteb]

3 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Are European bands just as good? If you're selling a thousand tickets, the cost of visas is likely to be marginal: can't imagine a booking agent will prefer worse acts if tickets don't sell? 

Besides less international travel, particularly flights, is better for the environment, which is a good thing right? 

Going to boil down to how much Europeans are going to charge Brits for visas and how long a visa will last for. (Clearly the UK is not making much money from EU bands, if not many of them are likely to be coming over here as there's no money to be made). 

You're not talking about a thousand tickets, you're closer to 300 or so. And yep, many of the European bands are just as good. 

Quite often, a British band leader will have a European backing band. I can think of one guy (moderate name on the blues circuit) who just moved out to Amsterdam. At Colne Blues festival last year, the Dutch guys were joking that it was nice to know us, but we'll never see them again. 

The real issue for small time pro uk musicians is that they may be cut off from the relatively lucrative European club circuit. 

[Al Krow]

9 minutes ago, peteb said:

The real issue for small time pro uk musicians is that they may be cut off from the relatively lucrative European club circuit. 

I completely get the concern, but I think until the visa regime (cost and visa duration and whether it's happening at all) is clear it's a little too early to start panicking?

I know the EU is playing hard-ball on a lot of things (it was the former Greek finance minister who spilled the beans on their tactics) and have e.g. yet to reciprocate on citizens rights for the 900,000 Brits living in Europe in the way we have (quite rightly) already done for the 3 million or so EU citizens living over here, a matter which is disgraceful for their part. But hopefully they will do the decent thing in the end.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Al Krow

[Powertripper]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Out of interest, what's the position for non EU musicians coming to the UK / EU currently e.g. from the US and the rest of the world: do they need visas?

Has that led to the death of music, or have folk just got a visa? 

Yes, but it is not a lot - as I recall, around £150 for a whole band. Something, but virtually nothing when compared to the UK musicians going to the US, where visas costs of course run into the thousands.

[Powertripper]

(+ I don't think it deters anyone from coming really. Even US bands on a shoestring can regularly tour the EU and here)

[peteb]

58 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I completely get the concern, but I think until the visa regime (cost and visa duration and whether it's happening at all) is clear it's a little too early to start panicking?

I know the EU is playing hard-ball on a lot of things (it was the former Greek finance minister who spilled the beans on their tactics) and have e.g. yet to reciprocate on citizens rights for the 900,000 Brits living in Europe in the way we have (quite rightly) already done for the 3 million or so EU citizens living over here, a matter which is disgraceful for their part. But hopefully they will do the decent thing in the end.

But people are panicking, because they are already losing work! The perception is that hiring UK musicians will be too much hassle and too expensive. 

The final visa regime may not be too bad / expensive, but then again it could be terrible. Remember, it is Brit musicians who need the relatively lucrative EU market, rather than the Dutch lads who are laughing that they may be forced to go and play in Germany for more money instead! 

Interesting take on the EU playing hard-ball, but let's not get into the specific politics of it. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by peteb

[ambient]

 

48 minutes ago, Powertripper said:

(+ I don't think it deters anyone from coming really. Even US bands on a shoestring can regularly tour the EU and here)

Then you really have no idea. I don't mean to be rude, but many artists play over here quite independently, they have no financial backing from anyone, and are lucky to draw even. They jump on Eurostar, travel to London, stay at friend's homes. They invariably don't make their living from it, so it wouldn't be tax deductible, merely an expense that will deter them.  I've played several times in Europe as a solo artist. I also did a talk at the Royal College of Music in Stockholm before Christmas. In future I will require a visa for those, which will make the cost prohibitive.

[ambient]

Also, if it’s like it currently is for artists from non-EU countries, then the artist will need to provide a certificate of sponsorship from the organiser; who must be a certified and recognised organiser. It can’t just be a privately run event. How many organisers are going to go to the hassle and expense of getting official recognition?

[Lozz196]

Think of how difficult it must have been for bands back in the 60s/70s to do all this without the benefits of the internet to help and take the strain. They all managed, why would we be so pitiably unable. Sure it’s more to do but those that want to do it will do, and reap the rewards that those that can’t be bothered let them take.

[ambient]

3 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Think of how difficult it must have been for bands back in the 60s/70s to do all this without the benefits of the internet to help and take the strain. They all managed, why would we be so pitiably unable. Sure it’s more to do but those that want to do it will do, and reap the rewards that those that can’t be bothered let them take.

Bands that did then tended to have backing. 
 

See my post above about the other requirements, a sponsor is required, the event needs to be organised by an officially licensed promoter. 

[paul_5]

I’m really going to struggle to be honest. My mates have visas but mine’s a MasterCard 🙁

[Al Krow]

Change happens. Spotify has had a far bigger impact on the music industry than a change in visa regime will ever have. Gotta move with the times. 

[ambient]

2 hours ago, Powertripper said:

Yes, but it is not a lot - as I recall, around £150 for a whole band. Something, but virtually nothing when compared to the UK musicians going to the US, where visas costs of course run into the thousands.

Yes, it’s £240 each, plus they need sponsors. 

[ambient]

3 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Change happens. Spotify has had a far bigger impact on the music industry than a change in visa regime will ever have. Gotta move with the times. 

Cultural enrichment can’t be replaced by Spotify. It’s regression, not moving with the times.

[ambient]

This is something a friend of mine just posted. I organised an event last year that he played at in Birmingham. He lives in Amsterdam.