CS Stack Knob Jazz?

[Owen]

I have had a Bravewood. It was a P and scratched all the same itches as my original 66 J. It taught me that I do not like a P nut width otherwise I would still have it. If only he did a reliced J5.........

I am aware that that is all kinds of wrong, but I want one anyway. 

[Piers_Williamson]

I read somewhere that Jaco's bass was a stacknob and he replaced it with the 2 vol& tone later set up because he thought the latter was louder.  Any thoughts?

[PTB]

23 hours ago, Reggaebass said:

There’s some really great limelight’s here, it’s one of my favourite threads 🙂

 

I now own the white Limelight Jazz at the start of this thread. It’s a monster, as good as a real ‘62 I was loaned some years ago. I would certainly recommend them & you’re welcome to have a play on it if you’re passing my way.

[Reggaebass]

16 minutes ago, PTB said:

I now own the white Limelight Jazz at the start of this thread. It’s a monster, as good as a real ‘62 I was loaned some years ago. I would certainly recommend them & you’re welcome to have a play on it if you’re passing my way.

There’s so many but that jazz is one of my favourite limelight’s , I’m definitely going to add one to my collection at some point, thanks PTB 👍

[PTB]

I dare not show it what the previous owner is up to this weekend. It’ll get serious “it could have been me” blues 😀

[Clarky]

This is nice and a third of the price you mentioned in your original post

[Chiliwailer]

15 hours ago, Piers_Williamson said:

I read somewhere that Jaco's bass was a stacknob and he replaced it with the 2 vol& tone later set up because he thought the latter was louder.  Any thoughts?

Can’t say for sure as I’ve never done a direct comparison in the same bass. But lots of folk hear a difference, some prefer one, some the other. 
I think the original SK’s had an additional resistor in the wiring. Would need an electronics savvy BC’s to chat about the difference in proper terms. 

[Tobe]

20 hours ago, Piers_Williamson said:

I read somewhere that Jaco's bass was a stacknob and he replaced it with the 2 vol& tone later set up because he thought the latter was louder.  Any thoughts?

Yes it's true.

passive stacked pots don't acctually work. the 2 passive tone circuits interact and cannot work independently of each other, so bassically both tones are master tones! this is because they're wired in parallel to one output jack. the truth is they can't actually do anything that one master tone can't do.
The original 60's circuit however, had summing resistors (which is basically a passive mixer) to divide the 2 circuits, but guess what, that adds resistance and lowers output (quieter so higher noise floor) also high end rolls off and acts as a 3rd fixed master tone. And another by-product of that meant it didn't have the mid scoop jazz sound that we all know and love. Leo Fender scrapped this idea simply because it was rubbish. The Fender stacked reissues don't have any summing resistors because of this, and so you have two master tones that basically do the same thing. The only reason Fender probably did stacked reissues is because nostalgia is a big selling point!
If you want the look of stacked pots then fine, but you're not gaining anything in reality.

Here's an easy test you can do to simply understand this principle.. all you need is a way to plug 2 basses into one amp input. either a makeshift cable or a 2 to 1 jack etc. one of the basses has to have a passive tone obviously (J or P bass), the other can be anything. what you will find is the passive tone will affect both instruments exactly the same, this is because they are connected in parallel by one single input amp jack.
So stacked pots are effectively the same as two passive basses plugged into one input, both basses tone knobs have the same effect on each other! so one master tone is all you need.
Ric with their 'ric-o-sound' dual output sockets was their way around this problem.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Tobe

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, Tobe said:

Yes it's true.

passive stacked pots don't acctually work. the 2 passive tone circuits interact and cannot work independently of each other, so bassically both tones are master tones! this is because they're wired in parallel to one output jack. the truth is they can't actually do anything that one master tone can't do.
The original 60's circuit however, had summing resistors (which is basically a passive mixer) to divide the 2 circuits, but guess what, that adds resistance and lowers output, so high end rolls off and acts as a 3rd fixed master tone. And another by-product of that meant it didn't have the mid scoop jazz sound that we all know and love, so it was pointless. Leo Fender scrapped this idea simply because it was rubbish. The Fender stacked reissues don't have any summing resistors because of this, and so you have two master tones that basically do the same thing. The only reason Fender probably did stacked reissues is because nostalgia is a big selling point!
If you want the look of stacked pots then fine, but you're not gaining anything in reality.

Here's an easy test you can do to simply understand this principle.. all you need is a way to plug 2 basses into one amp input. either a makeshift cable or a 2 to 1 jack etc. one of the basses has to have a passive tone obviously (J or P bass), the other can be anything. what you will find is the passive tone will affect both instruments exactly the same, this is because they are connected in parallel by one single input amp jack.
So stacked pots are effectively the same as two passive basses plugged into one input, both basses tone knobs have the same effect on each other! so one master tone is all you need.
Ric with their 'ric-o-sound' dual output sockets was their way around this problem.

Absolutely, SK is a far visually than sonically, appealing configuration. The Jazz Bass tone that everyone talks about is VVT

[Chiliwailer]

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

Absolutely, SK is a far visually than sonically, appealing configuration. The Jazz Bass tone that everyone talks about is VVT

Unless it’s Flea’s tone on The Getaway 😂 (as per that other thread  ) 

There’s a blonde 61 SK that I played in 2004 and felt was the nicest bass I’ve ever played, seriously. In 2008 it popped up again and still was my favourite. Not saying they are better, just that it still sounded beautiful in its own way. 

[Kazan]

1 hour ago, Tobe said:

Yes it's true.

passive stacked pots don't acctually work. the 2 passive tone circuits interact and cannot work independently of each other, so bassically both tones are master tones! this is because they're wired in parallel to one output jack. the truth is they can't actually do anything that one master tone can't do.
The original 60's circuit however, had summing resistors (which is basically a passive mixer) to divide the 2 circuits, but guess what, that adds resistance and lowers output (quieter so higher noise floor) also high end rolls off and acts as a 3rd fixed master tone. And another by-product of that meant it didn't have the mid scoop jazz sound that we all know and love. Leo Fender scrapped this idea simply because it was rubbish. The Fender stacked reissues don't have any summing resistors because of this, and so you have two master tones that basically do the same thing. The only reason Fender probably did stacked reissues is because nostalgia is a big selling point!
If you want the look of stacked pots then fine, but you're not gaining anything in reality.

Here's an easy test you can do to simply understand this principle.. all you need is a way to plug 2 basses into one amp input. either a makeshift cable or a 2 to 1 jack etc. one of the basses has to have a passive tone obviously (J or P bass), the other can be anything. what you will find is the passive tone will affect both instruments exactly the same, this is because they are connected in parallel by one single input amp jack.
So stacked pots are effectively the same as two passive basses plugged into one input, both basses tone knobs have the same effect on each other! so one master tone is all you need.
Ric with their 'ric-o-sound' dual output sockets was their way around this problem.

Well stated. This is why more often than not originals have had the resistors removed. In fairness, I had a '60 which still had them and it was a really good sounding bass all the same - the difference is fairly nominal but is real.

[Beedster]

51 minutes ago, Chiliwailer said:

Unless it’s Flea’s tone on The Getaway 😂 (as per that other thread  ) 

Can you talk me through that tone in the context of this thread Dan?

[Chiliwailer]

Just now, Beedster said:

Can you talk me through that tone in the context of this thread Dan?

Truth is Chris, I just sit back and listen to Flea doing his thing, rather than analyse it -  He’s a mountain of the bass world and I’m just a little pea (irresistible pun). The fact that he and the band are doing what they want is good enough for me, I always enjoy their stuff and feel connected to it. 

But to say something relevant, as you asked, I like the fact he’s gone for a different tone, and that after all these years and albums there’s yet again a new vibe, which I love. 

[Beedster]

4 minutes ago, Chiliwailer said:

Truth is Chris, I just sit back and listen to Flea doing his thing, rather than analyse it -  He’s a mountain of the bass world and I’m just a little pea (irresistible pun). The fact that he and the band are doing what they want is good enough for me, I always enjoy their stuff and feel connected to it. 

But to say something relevant, as you asked, I like the fact he’s gone for a different tone, and that after all these years and albums there’s yet again a new vibe, which I love. 

Totally agree, but was he playing a SK (or did I miss the point here)? 

[Chiliwailer]

4 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Totally agree, but was he playing a SK (or did I miss the point here)? 

Ah, got ya...

Sounds to me like it’s that bass,  though as you well know, that bass could have many sounds via amps etc. so it’s pretty cool for me that he went for a tone that brought out the vintage/flatwounds vibe. 

[Tobe]

1 hour ago, Kazan said:

Well stated. This is why more often than not originals have had the resistors removed. In fairness, I had a '60 which still had them and it was a really good sounding bass all the same - the difference is fairly nominal but is real.

Thanks :)

The difference you hear with the original 60's circuit (with summing resistors) is a slightly lower volume, which rolls off high end. that can be achieved on a VVT by simply backing off both volumes a shade.
However! the original 60's (due to the resistors) had no mid scoop tone neither because of the separated circuits.

As for the reissues that have no summing resistors, or the 60's that had them removed, there are no difference's other than having two master tones.

[Beedster]

6 minutes ago, Chiliwailer said:

Ah, got ya...

Sounds to me like it’s that bass,  though as you well know, that bass could have many sounds via amps etc. so it’s pretty cool for me that he went for a tone that brought out the vintage/flatwounds vibe. 

I kinda prefer the idea that he’s playing one vintage bass than five or six boutique Wal/Alembic/Modulus/Spector basses (and having just checked he apparently used the 61 Jazz for the whole album). I’m not convinced it works on all the tracks however, whereas I think on Cal/BTW/SA you can hear where he uses different basses to their strengths. 
 

Either way, if I had 10% of his talent I’d be happy

[Tobe]

I've never seen a Flea jazz in the flesh, doe's anyone know if it has the resistors in? or is it the same as the reissues? 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Tobe

[Chiliwailer]

24 minutes ago, Beedster said:

 

Either way, if I had 10% of his talent I’d be happy

You’ve good reason to be happy then  

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, Tobe said:

passive stacked pots don't acctually work. the 2 passive tone circuits interact and cannot work independently of each other, so bassically both tones are master tones! this is because they're wired in parallel to one output jack. the truth is they can't actually do anything that one master tone can't do.

That's not strictly true...

They behave as if the tones are wired across the inputs to each volume control, not the outputs, so their effects only blend noticeably when both pickups are above about 75 - 80% volume.

As you can see from that diagram, when either volume control is rolled right back, its tone is grounded and effectively out of the circuit.

I often keep the neck tone off or near off and the bridge tone bright, and switching pups using the volume controls shows the settings to be independent when used like that.

Turning both pickups right up and if one tone control is rolled off it will have the dominant effect.

This takes some getting used to but does actually open up a very wide range of tones, something I've only really been exploring in the last month having had the bass for about four months.

So, for example I can go from a reggae style neck pup, tone rolled off, to bright bridge pup with two knob twirls, where my other Jazz requires three.

Effectively you can 'preset' the tone for each pickup at the expense of having to learn to understand how it behaves when using both pickups.

 

My 'main sound' now is neck pickup tone rolled back and volume at about a quarter with both bridge pickup controls maxed. I find this adds just enough 'fatness'.

Interestingly the Seymour Duncan website where I got the diagram above seems to share my findings:

https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/the-1962-fender-jazz-control

(Note the first reply on that page is wrong because the clever bit is that the pickups are wired to the WIPERS of the volume controls a point most commentators seem to have missed.)

Here's a pic off 'the other website' and you can see its consistent with the above diagram.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Stub Mandrel

[karlfer]

A quick snap of my now completely passive (& filthy it appears 😚) Elite Jazz.

Ki0Gon passive loom, the previous active/passive switch is now series/parallel & it plays & sounds wonderful.

Edited February 23, 2020 by karlfer

[Tobe]

24 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

That's not strictly true...

They behave as if the tones are wired across the inputs to each volume control, not the outputs, so their effects only blend noticeably when both pickups are above about 75 - 80% volume.

As you can see from that diagram, when either volume control is rolled right back, its tone is grounded and effectively out of the circuit.

I often keep the neck tone off or near off and the bridge tone bright, and switching pups using the volume controls shows the settings to be independent when used like that.

Turning both pickups right up and if one tone control is rolled off it will have the dominant effect.

This takes some getting used to but does actually open up a very wide range of tones, something I've only really been exploring in the last month having had the bass for about four months.

So, for example I can go from a reggae style neck pup, tone rolled off, to bright bridge pup with two knob twirls, where my other Jazz requires three.

Effectively you can 'preset' the tone for each pickup at the expense of having to learn to understand how it behaves when using both pickups.

 

My 'main sound' now is neck pickup tone rolled back and volume at about a quarter with both bridge pickup controls maxed. I find this adds just enough 'fatness'.

Interestingly the Seymour Duncan website where I got the diagram above seems to share my findings:

https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/the-tone-garage/the-1962-fender-jazz-control

(Note the first reply on that page is wrong because the clever bit is that the pickups are wired to the WIPERS of the volume controls a point most commentators seem to have missed.)

Here's a pic off 'the other website' and you can see its consistent with the above diagram.

Yes, by lowering your volumes to 75% you are effectively doing what the summing resistors do, but having a quieter output with more tone roll off and an increased noise floor. If it works for you fine. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Tobe

[Reggaebass]

13 minutes ago, karlfer said:

A quick snap of my now completely passive (& filthy it appears 😚) Elite Jazz.

Ki0Gon passive loom, the previous active/passive switch is now series/parallel & it plays & sounds wonderful.

Superb 👍, I was thinking about doing this to an elite myself 

[Stub Mandrel]

2 minutes ago, Tobe said:

Yes, by lowering your volumes to 75% you are effectively doing what the summing resistors do, but having a quieter output and increased noise floor. If it works for you fine. 

Yes, but you only need to do this with ONE volume control.

By having both vols on max, you do then have the 'each tone is effectively a master' situation, but with one rolled right off it's then an analogue of a standard Jazz.

The important bit that's being missed is that when one pup is on and the other off the two tones controls are independent. You stated:

29 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

the 2 passive tone circuits interact and cannot work independently of each other

I suspect you meant to add 'when both pickups are at max volume' to the end of that bit, but I thought it was important to set the record straight.

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, Chiliwailer said:

You’ve good reason to be happy then  

You’re a gentleman Dan