Letting someone down gently

[Jakester]

May I prevail on the wisdom of the collective for a moment with this quandary?

I’m in the process of putting together a new band. I thought we had the nucleus of something and we had a first jam this week. 

Everyone was very keen, and talked a good talk. Unfortunately one of the players simply wasn’t good enough - he was a lovely guy, but seemed to struggle to master even the basics of his instrument. He said he’d been playing for years, but ‘had had a little time away’. He managed to get through the first couple of tunes by playing his part rote with no alterations, but when we moved to jam a couple of tunes that we were all less sure on, he really struggled. Even suggesting the chords and then actual notes to him didn’t work.

Having chatted it over with the others, we concluded he was lovely but just didn’t have the ability. It’s down to me to break it to him, and I’m in two minds. 
 

Do I:

a) tell him thanks, but we’ve gone with someone else, (we haven’t yet)

b) just tell him nicely but outright that he wasn’t good enough or

c) have another jam with more difficult songs and tell him when he inevitably struggles?

[bassintheface]

b) kind of - maybe not "you're not good enough" though,  as this may cause long term issues with his playing / development.

Maybe something more constructive - that you're looking for someone to fully contribute to writing and the creative process and that he's just not ready / at the same level as everyone else, which will cause frustrations for both parties.

 

OR,if he's keen and you could happily be with the type of personality in the band situation, do you have the time to spend with him helping him develop??

 

I've been in bands with people with amazing ability, but horrendous personalities - I'd go for the better personality 9 times out of 10.

[lownote]

Maybe try a  d/ putting the onus on him: ask him if he think's he's good enough, and/or if your type of music is really his bag.  If his reponse is that it's all fine and he'll tidy up any rough corners then move to a more nuclear option.  I'm afraid being mildy Aspergic I'm not sensitive to the need to be sensitive.  

We had a guy audition for our blues band. From the moment he came through the door he was banging on negatively about his weight (massive) and state of health (pouring with sweat) and how he was ploppy (this saves BC's primbot bowdlerising my use of the sh1te word) and couldn't understand why we were even considering him.  With the best will in the will we couldn't imagine working with him so we gently declined his services.  He went to another band and has since become a popular and sought after blues singer /leader in the region.

Edited February 13, 2020 by lownote12

[Teebs]

⏫ This.

We all have to start somewhere, and maybe he's a really quick learner.

He could be a revelation; or not.

Give him a chance

Edited February 13, 2020 by Teebs

[Cuzzie]

He may not be a jamming type of guy, but can get a decent part together with some practice beforehand, I know it takes me longer than my guitarist to sort something jamming out other than a root note, so we record it and revisit it the next week when I have had time to work something out (as long as the guitarist doesn’t change it!)

Give him a workload which is fair and not unrealistic to learn for the next rehearsal and see where he is at, if he puts the work in, plays a decent tune and provides a consistent layer of sound that others who can jam over the top can fold around, then actually it’s not a bad thing.

If he cannot pop together pre-prepared material either due to not being able to have the time to do the work, or he doesn’t play well enough, then that is another issue.

Better to play with nice people of lesser ability than a genius who is a bell end

[Strawbs664]

b) every time. If you really don't see any chance of improvement there's no point in stringing him along - it'll only get harder to tell him in the long run, and the truth is generally the best approach.

Re-assure him that it's not personal and that it's purely because he's not at the same standard as the rest of you at the moment. Keep it civil & then the door is always open if there is a miraculous improvement in the future.

[petebassist]

I'd try C and if that doesn't work do B. 

The jam thing might have just been nerves, I'm not that good myself when put on the spot TBH, so I prepare a lot. It does get my goat a bit though when people 'get their excuses in early', about being rusty/ill/not slept/no time to properly prepare etc.

[Cuzzie]

How many members in the band?

If needs be and he doesn’t come up to scratch you can always say that your ‘primary’ guitarist prefers being in a 3 piece (some guitarists do)

[la bam]

I'd give him another chance.

Give him 5 songs to master for next time then give him all night to have them sorted in a band scenario.

I can play just about anything, but cant 'jam' for love nor money. I absolutely hate it! and I'm useless at it. He may just be a player who can play what hes practiced.

Also, nerves play a huge role when first meeting up. Once he relaxes he may be fine.

If after that he isnt up to it, and doesnt have the enthusiasm to improve, then take it from there.

[Unknown_User]

From what you've written I'd be giving him a bit more of a go.  I suppose it depends what type of band you are, but if he can learn a part by wrote and play it fine then unless you're a freeform jazz improvisation collective then isn't that what you want from someone in your band?  Who will learn the song and play it?

Unless there's something else going on then I think getting shut just for that might be a bit harsh.  He might be a good player who was nervous about improvising or just not used to doing it.  I personally much prefer to be prepared for a rehearsal and know what I'm playing in advance because I find it takes me a few goes round a song to get the gist of it.

[AdrianP]

Does he have his own transport? Brings his own gear? Is he reliable? Unlikely to run off with the drummer's wife?Otherwise trustworthy? If the answer to all of those things is 'yes' I'd say he's 90 percent of the way to being a perfect band member. I'd cut him some slack and see how he settles in with the band. If you drop him, you may not be so lucky next time. 

[paul_c2]

Do you want to take on the role of "educator" and he take on the role of "student"? If you're both on the same page, AND he's willing to try and learn, then IMHO its worth giving it a go. Character, or just being a nice human being, is massively important in a band, as well as making nice music when the time comes and you're on-stage in the spotlight!

Just be aware, you might go through that process but it isn't 100% guaranteed he will learn (quick enough), then you're into simplifying parts or the pace of progression being defined by this, ie maybe not doing certain difficult songs etc.

[dave_bass5]

Life's too short to waste time. if he isnt cutting it you have to sort it out asap, before band morale drops and you're in danger of losing other members.

[BlueMoon]

1 hour ago, lownote12 said:

Maybe try a  d/ putting the onus on him: ask him if he think's he's good enough

.......and if he is really enjoying it? 

I was in this type of situation a few years back. Lovely guy - he was actually relieved when option d was put to him. He had felt under enormous pressure to perform at another level and knew it was beyond him at that point in time. He was afraid to let anybody down by bailing, so sucked up the pressure, which only made things worse for him.

We've stayed in touch as friends since then. 

[Jakester]

Thanks for your views, very interesting. Just to put some meat on the bone:

The chap in question is very nice but this is still essentially a startup, so I don’t know any of them very well.

It wasn’t just the jamming he struggled with: we’d agreed a list of four tunes to run through at our first meeting; he warned us in advance that he’d only done three owing to work pressures (which is fine - real life takes precedence!) but even two of those were a bit ropy. 

It’s purely covers at the moment, so there’s no writing etc involved. 
 

Although this sounds very harsh as I type it, I don’t have the time to help develop someone - I play in two other bands (and there’s another one ‘on hiatus’) and work full time so I barely have enough time to sort myself out, let alone anyone else. 

Interestingly this has happened in another of my bands with our singer - we all felt he wasn’t cutting the mustard despite repeated chances, and so we auditioned someone else last night and she blew us away. It showed how we as a collective were being held back  by the one individual. 

[dave_bass5]

I'm going through the same thing with my band. Drummer never practices (i mean never), so rehearsals and gigs are the only time he plays. Always turns up with 'not had a chance to go over the songs, been manic at work'. Great way to start a rehearsal. We get on really well, and have a good laugh, but its eating in to me and im losing interest in the band, which is affecting my playing. 

He is definitely the weakest link, by far, and has cost us gigs in the past. Just cant bring myself to sack him, but when i do i dont feel i can pull any punches as its built up for too long.

Nip it in the bud now.

[Jakester]

3 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

I'm going through the same thing with my band. Drummer never practices (i mean never), so rehearsals and gigs are the only time he plays. Always turns up with 'not had a chance to go over the songs, been manic at work'. Great way to start a rehearsal. We get on really well, and have a good laugh, but its eating in to me and im losing interest in the band, which is affecting my playing. 

He is definitely the weakest link, by far, and has cost us gigs in the past. Just cant bring myself to sack him, but when i do i dont feel i can pull any punches as its built up for too long.

Nip it in the bud now.

Yes, this was what happened with the singer in the other band - it was clear that even a little bit of prep could have resulted in a palpable improvement, but he could never be bothered, leading to using lyric sheets on stage. The lowlight was him introducing songs at our last gig as “sorry in advance, this is probably going to be stinky poo” when the rest of us had all worked hard to get the songs down. 

[Bolo]

Don't lie. Fibs will always come back to haunt you. Either give him a second chance or tell him how it's not working out.

Edited February 13, 2020 by Bolo

[la bam]

9 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Always turns up with 'not had a chance to go over the songs, been manic at work'. Great way to start a rehearsal.

As soon as you here that, walk away.

It's not a good sign.

[musicbassman]

This is tricky.  But maybe here’s some language to help put your message across tactfully.

(Always say ‘we’ and not ‘I’ – to show it’s what the band thinks collectively, not your personal opinion)

·        -  We’re not sure you’re ready for this yet.

·        -  Your playing’s coming on well, but we’re not sure you can handle this – you’ll be under a lot of pressure.

·       -   It’s obviously going to take up a lot of your time preparing the material – we’re not sure you can really spare the time for this.

·       -   We’re not sure you’re the right fit for this material.

·        -  We’re not sure you’re on the same page as us.

·        -  We’re not sure you have the breadth of experience you’ll need for this.

·         - You’d certainly fit in well as a person but we’re not sure it would work musically.

 

[dave_bass5]

19 minutes ago, Jakester said:

Yes, this was what happened with the singer in the other band - it was clear that even a little bit of prep could have resulted in a palpable improvement, but he could never be bothered, leading to using lyric sheets on stage. The lowlight was him introducing songs at our last gig as “sorry in advance, this is probably going to be stinky poo” when the rest of us had all worked hard to get the songs down. 

Yep, its like a kick in the balls to those that made the effort. I spend at least 2 hours a night playing bass. Not always for the band, but im no top of it all. I get to rehearsal and spend a good portion of it listening to spotify while some of the others work out where bits go. I get we all work, but when you join a band you are making a commitment. its really that simple. You weigh up your ability to make the effort, and if you cant, walk away.

15 minutes ago, la bam said:

As soon as you here that, walk away.

It's not a good sign.

Leaving a band is not as easy as those knee jerk  phrases make it seem. I see this said a lot, but if you had an idea of how much work someone put in to a band walking away is not an easy option.

Wouldn't it make sense to sack the one person causing the issue rather becoming bandless, letting the others down and possibly gig agents?

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by dave_bass5

[la bam]

26 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Yep, its like a kick in the balls to those that made the effort. I spend at least 2 hours a night playing bass. Not always for the band, but im no top of it all. I get to rehearsal and spend a good portion of it listening to spotify while some of the others work out where bits go. I get we all work, but when you join a band you are making a commitment. its really that simple. You weigh up your ability to make the effort, and if you cant, walk away.

Leaving a band is not as easy as those knee jerk  phrases make it seem. I see this said a lot, but if you had an idea of how much work someone put in to a band walking away is not an easy option.

Wouldn't it make sense to sack the one person causing the issue rather becoming bandless, letting the others down and possibly gig agents?

 

Which ever way you do it, I wouldnt stay in that line up if he turns up every practice saying that. Been there, done that several times. All it does is continually boil up inside and drive you mad, whilst holding the band back, until it will eventually come to a head maybe even years down the line. Then you'll wonder why you put up with it. If hes 'too busy at work' to put in the effort like everyone else, then he shouldnt be there with you.

[Monkey Steve]

B, all the way

I've been in bands with people who were excellent to hang out with, really nice blokes, but their playing wasn't up to scratch and as much as we willed them to get better, and as hard as they worked, they never got to the level required.  If it holds the band back then they should be dispensed with as soon as possible.  If you're just forming the band then it's not like they've invested months of their time so better to carry on without them.

As for how to tell them, look him in the eye and tell him he's not good enough.  Not from a cruel perspective, simply because it's the truth and dressing it up doesn't help anybody.  It also doesn't leave the door open.  He may disagree - I've certainly played with some awful musicians who thought they were great - so have some examples of stuff that he messed up

If you want to give him another try, maybe a chance to learn the songs a bit better, that's fine (assuming that everybody agrees) but I would give him feedback ahead of this and let him know what he needs to improve on, and what he's missing that you want to see,  And while i wouldn't go with option C in it's entirety, it does no harm to set him something to stretch him a bit - if everybody else has the skills to pick up a more complicated song in a week, then he has to be able to keep up

[KevB]

Of course having gone through all this he will be in touch shortly telling you that you are not quite what he's looking for so he's letting you all go.

[Graham56]

"All band members take one step forward!"

"Not so fast sunshine, where do you think you are going?"