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Toddy

Amplification (have we gone wrong)

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Just now, peteb said:

What about the earlier Italian built LM3s??

Useful thread discussed that very point - and confirms your thinking that the early LM3s were class AB

Here's a relevant question: if you could compare the Class AB LM3 with a Class D LM3 (with the rest of the rig unchanged), would you hear any difference? If the answer is "no", then that must go a long way to validating @Phil Starr's very well put hypothesis.

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5 hours ago, steantval said:

Definitely some stick, you started off your thread with “so” 😀
 

That aside, I used to love by big old Peavey TNT combo’s back in the day.

I started using a TNT 1x15 comb at the rehearsal studios a few years back, and it walked all over the rig I personally owned at the time. Was very tempted to see if I could find one until i tried to pick it up. Amazing sold tone though. 

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10 minutes ago, Toddy said:

please note, I'm not trying to pick an argument, but I've a lot of experience, and my ears arnt painted on, 

Oh I can tell that, we all like different things and different things move us

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It’s very hard to describe, but I think/feel the difference is kinda like this:-

a valve amp is still “active” even no nothing is actually playing through it. It’s charged, all ready moving, just waiting for a signal to work upon, and when a signal is passed through it works upon it in a positive/negative wave, replicating the motion of the strings etc. 
class d feels like it only reacts to the positive “push” of the strings, making it feel like half the dynamics and depth feel missing somehow. 
it measures perceptibly  as just as loud, but kind feels half there..

what do u guys think?

 

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I’ve played through most heads, of all classes, and own various ss, d and valve amps. For me, dynamic feel and a response making me feel attached is worth more than tone when playing. It gives better expression, ability to ride bends and sustain, and makes me feel more connected.  Good Tone comes from this :)

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58 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

 its all a load of nonsense anyway, any half decent engineer will DI you, your on stage sound is vanity

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And a fully decent engineer will take your DI signal, pre and post amp, and blend with a mic’ ed cabinet and use that :0)

Edited by roonjuice
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Just now, roonjuice said:

And a fully decent engineer will take your di signal pre and post amp, an blend with a mic’ ed cabinet and use that :0)

Yup 👏

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16 minutes ago, roonjuice said:

I’ve played through most heads, of all classes, and own various ss, d and valve amps. For me, dynamic feel and a response making me feel attached is worth more than tone when playing. It gives better expression, ability to ride bends and sustain, and makes me feel more connected.  Good Tone comes from this :)

Nice summary. 

I've been told that part of the reason my Mesa M6 is such a great amp (hybrid AB as it happens) and is for me, without question, the amp whose tone I like best when paired with any of the cabs I've had, is partly down to it being a very responsive amp. Which very much ties in with what you're saying. 

But what makes one amp responsive and another less so, is well above my pay grade!

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7 minutes ago, roonjuice said:

And a fully decent engineer will take your di signal pre and post amp, an blend with a mic’ ed cabinet and use that :0)

er,,nope,, they wont,,what planet are you on?

 

Edited by Toddy
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45 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Useful thread discussed that very point - and confirms your thinking that the early LM3s were class AB

Here's a relevant question: if you could compare the Class AB LM3 with a Class D LM3 (with the rest of the rig unchanged), would you hear any difference? If the answer is "no", then that must go a long way to validating @Phil Starr's very well put hypothesis.

I haven't got a later LM3, but based on the difference in volume between my Italian 500w rated LM3 and the 800w Mesa D800 (spoiler, the Markbass is MUCH louder and generally has more umph), I'm guessing that there would be. Bear in mind that I actually liked the basic tone of the D800, it just wasn't loud enough and didn't cut through. 

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14 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

But what makes one amp responsive and another less so, is well above my pay grade!

 

I can't give you a technical reason why, but in my experience it tends to be connected to whether it has a Class D power stage. 

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1 minute ago, peteb said:

I haven't got a later LM3, but based on the difference in volume between my Italian 500w rated LM3 and the 800w Mesa D800 (spoiler, the Markbass is MUCH louder and generally has more umph), I'm guessing that there would be. Bear in mind that I actually liked the basic tone of the D800, it just wasn't loud enough and didn't cut through. 

I genuinely don't fecking care..its all about the sound, its either right or not,,

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5 minutes ago, Toddy said:

I genuinely don't fecking care..its all about the sound, its either right or not,,

I thought that the whole point of this thread was that it was 'bothering' you... 

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Just now, peteb said:

I thought that the whole point of this thread was that it was 'bothering' you... 

fair comment,, im out , lol,, love to all xxx

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1 hour ago, Toddy said:

 its all a load of nonsense anyway, any half decent engineer will DI you, your on stage sound is vanity

1 hour ago, Toddy said:

er,,nope,, they wont,,what planet are you on?

 

Easy now bud, no need to get defensive. You go your way, and I’ll go mine. ;)

Edited by roonjuice

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Conversely I think bass players and bands in general sound miles better these days than they did when big old Peavey etc rigs were the standard. I've always enjoyed playing through old rigs (carted around a Hartke stack for years) but every time I've changed amps it's been for clarity and being able to hear myself better with light weight and compact size as a bonus.

 

I don't use any backline now and get the clearest sound I've ever had. We also have a very good PA so I sound better out front too.

Edited by lemmywinks

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2 hours ago, hooky_lowdown said:

Corrected. 🤔

Well, old Peavey gear is my least favourite ever, and I’ve used loads of it over the past nearly 40 years. But my VT500 doesn’t sound pants, to me at least. 😉

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3 hours ago, Toddy said:

so after 20 yrs of making people dance and have a goo d time, im still convinced, this is a load of bollox, 

Are you saying that if you had a class D amp all that time, noone would have danced or had a good time?

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I'm a product of the 60s & 70s. I wish my band could afford IEMs and I wish I could sell my band mates ( all half my age ) on the value of what IEMs could bring to the band.

Blue

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16 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Are you saying that if you had a class D amp all that time, noone would have danced or had a good time?

basically yes,,,do you dance?

 

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13 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

I'm a product of the 60s & 70s. I wish my band could afford IEMs and I wish I could sell my band mates ( all half my age ) on the value of what IEMs could bring to the band.

Blue

love your input, but feck..were supposed to impress the audience , not ourselves

 

 

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7 hours ago, Toddy said:

love your input, but feck..were supposed to impress the audience , not ourselves

 

 

Are you saying that using in ear monitoring would result in a less impressive experience for the audience? 

If you're playing the big stages you say you are then surely in ear monitoring is something you have come across. On a stage that big near enough nobody hears your amp anyway. Your tone is pretty much completely at the mercy of the foh engineer. A decent quality pa system will wipe the floor with any bass amp whether it be vintage valve or modern class d. In smaller venues a decent pa can remove the need for any backline at all and make the whole thing even more impressive for the audience.

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