70s Rickenbacker 4001 /4003 copy

[Bassassin]

16 hours ago, RichardD22 said:

You should write a book with your knowledge and history! Amazing. So do you think mine is Chushin? Did they make for lots of brands? For info I looked under the pickups and there are no other markings of note. Thanks again

Actually, I've always wanted to write a book. I have tried to get something started a few times, but so far I'm struggling to find a cohesive narrative combining Japanese basses & guitars of the 70s and 80s (with a focus on the Rickenbacker bass copy) with graphic sex, violence, and Lovecraft-esque eldritch horror. Art can be such a struggle...

It appears that Chushin was one of Japan's biggest guitar manufacturers of the 70s era, and their instruments were sold worldwide with a plethora of different brands - in the UK, common names like Columbus, Avon, Grant, CMI, Saxon, Sumbro, Grantson etc were all predominantly Chushin builds.

With most brands being importer names, the best way to pinpoint who made what is to tie a manufacturer to a single brand (eg it's known that all 70s MIJ Ibanez was made by Fujigen Gakki) so when the identical instrument turns up with a different name, you know who made it. With Chushin, the exclusive brands were Maya and El Maya, which were owned by a Japanese trading co/exporter called Rokkomann.

This pic is the nearest thing to proof that basses like yours were Chushin:

The  biggest problem with positive ID is the number of different factories making instruments during the 70s copy era. Most people with a bit of an interest will have heard of Matsumoku & Fujigen but there were literally dozens - possibly into the hundreds - of manufacturers, from big mass-producers to little backstreet woodshops, all making good copies of Fenders, Gibsons, Rickenbackers etc. Many of these will have been short-lived & disappeared without a trace.

Very few records were kept, either by manufactures or importers, so what we know comes mostly from surviving catalogues and examples, plus a bit of testimony from people who worked in the industry at the time.

With Rick copies it's sometimes easier to know who didn't make a bass, rather than who did. Instruments made by Fujigen, Matsumoku, Kasuga and Yamaki all have particular build traits and combinations of details & hardware that make them easy to ID but there are a lot of Fakers where it's educated guesswork, and a few where it's anyone's guess! Even with the Chushin/Shaftesbury type there are a couple of quirks & variations which make it a bit less certain -  fretboards & inlays vary, some are unvarnished and have real MOP inlays, some have translucent plastic scratchplates while others are solid white. This may not indicate different manufacturers, as details sometimes change over the years.

And some might be made in Brazil - but that's a completely different can of worms...

[Frank Blank]

2 hours ago, Bassassin said:

Actually, I've always wanted to write a book.

See, that would be amazing. As an ex (as if) train spotter I spent an inordinate amount of time with my head stuck in the annually published Combined Motive Power books. These books listed all Locomotives and electric/diesel multiple units in operation across the UK rail network. There is something about such taxonomic tomes, the layout, the systems of classification (don’t get me started on Dewey), just information presented in such a fashion gets me quite moist! But seriously, do it, I’d certainly love to work on such a project. Reference material *swoon*

Edited January 29, 2020 by Frank Blank

[Staggering on]

11 hours ago, steantval said:

Just checked out the writing on the inside of the body and it translates to -

Special Fried Rice.

Good one, but does anyone know what language the writing is? Surely that would be a guide to the origins of the bass...or am I missing something here.

[NikNik]

5 hours ago, Bassassin said:

 

And some might be made in Brazil - but that's a completely different can of worms...

Seriously? Go on, you've already opened that can of worms!

[FDC484950]

It looks Japanese to me. After the 4 the first character looks like the Katakana “e” followed by “ri-i” (long I sound) but hard to tell what the remainder is... maybe “sa” and then “ba” or “pa”. I recognise the writing but don’t read/write much in Japanese.

[phil.c60]

I find this all very interesting, especially the Brazilian thing - Rosewood neck, I presume! Seriously though, are the Japanese copies any good? Will Mr. J. Hall get a bit cross and threatening if anyone says that they are? I've always fancied a Ric, but don't fancy the cost of finding out that I don't like it.....as I understand that apparently they are not everyone's cup of tea.

Edited January 29, 2020 by phil.c60

[NikNik]

1 hour ago, phil.c60 said:

I find this all very interesting, especially the Brazilian thing - Rosewood neck, I presume! Seriously though, are the Japanese copies any good? Will Mr. J. Hall get a bit cross and threatening if anyone says that they are? I've always fancied a Ric, but don't fancy the cost of finding out that I don't like it.....as I understand that apparently they are not everyone's cup of tea.

Most of the Jap ones are good, esp Ibanez, Greco, Fernandes. Some of them look like old Ricks and some would say they're built better but that's all subjective. Greco made some crackers, like this PMB-85. Excellent construction. All original bar the pickups.
 

[prowla]

3 hours ago, phil.c60 said:

I find this all very interesting, especially the Brazilian thing - Rosewood neck, I presume! Seriously though, are the Japanese copies any good? Will Mr. J. Hall get a bit cross and threatening if anyone says that they are? I've always fancied a Ric, but don't fancy the cost of finding out that I don't like it.....as I understand that apparently they are not everyone's cup of tea.

The cost of trying out a Ric is zero - but it and if you don’t gel with it then sell it. 

[phil.c60]

9 minutes ago, prowla said:

The cost of trying out a Ric is zero - but it and if you don’t gel with it then sell it. 

Unless you are left handed like I am, then you could end up with it for a mighty long time, parked in the corner gathering dust.

[prowla]

2 hours ago, NikNik said:

Most of the Jap ones are good, esp Ibanez, Greco, Fernandes. Some of them look like old Ricks and some would say they're built better but that's all subjective. Greco made some crackers, like this PMB-85. Excellent construction. All original bar the pickups.
 

Greco are probably the top of the tree. 

 

45 minutes ago, phil.c60 said:

Unless you are left handed like I am, then you could end up with it for a mighty long time, parked in the corner gathering dust.

Or there’s a queue of lefties waiting for one to come up. 

[RichardD22]

On 28/01/2020 at 13:59, prowla said:

Nut to 12th fret and double it.

Thanks. Didn't know that's how to measure them 👍

[prowla]

3 minutes ago, RichardD22 said:

Thanks. Didn't know that's how to measure them 👍

You could do nut to bridge, but the bridge or intonation could be out, so the 12th fret is half-way (hence the harmonic there) and so is more precise.

[RichardD22]

19 hours ago, Bassassin said:

Actually, I've always wanted to write a book. I have tried to get something started a few times, but so far I'm struggling to find a cohesive narrative combining Japanese basses & guitars of the 70s and 80s (with a focus on the Rickenbacker bass copy) with graphic sex, violence, and Lovecraft-esque eldritch horror. Art can be such a struggle...

It appears that Chushin was one of Japan's biggest guitar manufacturers of the 70s era, and their instruments were sold worldwide with a plethora of different brands - in the UK, common names like Columbus, Avon, Grant, CMI, Saxon, Sumbro, Grantson etc were all predominantly Chushin builds.

With most brands being importer names, the best way to pinpoint who made what is to tie a manufacturer to a single brand (eg it's known that all 70s MIJ Ibanez was made by Fujigen Gakki) so when the identical instrument turns up with a different name, you know who made it. With Chushin, the exclusive brands were Maya and El Maya, which were owned by a Japanese trading co/exporter called Rokkomann.

This pic is the nearest thing to proof that basses like yours were Chushin:

The  biggest problem with positive ID is the number of different factories making instruments during the 70s copy era. Most people with a bit of an interest will have heard of Matsumoku & Fujigen but there were literally dozens - possibly into the hundreds - of manufacturers, from big mass-producers to little backstreet woodshops, all making good copies of Fenders, Gibsons, Rickenbackers etc. Many of these will have been short-lived & disappeared without a trace.

Very few records were kept, either by manufactures or importers, so what we know comes mostly from surviving catalogues and examples, plus a bit of testimony from people who worked in the industry at the time.

With Rick copies it's sometimes easier to know who didn't make a bass, rather than who did. Instruments made by Fujigen, Matsumoku, Kasuga and Yamaki all have particular build traits and combinations of details & hardware that make them easy to ID but there are a lot of Fakers where it's educated guesswork, and a few where it's anyone's guess! Even with the Chushin/Shaftesbury type there are a couple of quirks & variations which make it a bit less certain -  fretboards & inlays vary, some are unvarnished and have real MOP inlays, some have translucent plastic scratchplates while others are solid white. This may not indicate different manufacturers, as details sometimes change over the years.

And some might be made in Brazil - but that's a completely different can of worms...

Your sense of humour would translate well into a book too! Would be interesting to read about all the commercial elements and nuances of the fakers and the litigation elements. You've probably enough material from the posts on this forum alone! I imagine the Japanese communities would be interested too. 

Not taking anything away from the quality instruments the fakers made but it makes me wonder if these fakers put their mind to a single brand akin to Gibson, Fender, Rick etc how they'd have fared commercially and within the realms of popular culture. 

That Maya bass pic is just like mine but less battered!

It really is a can of worms. I think you hit the nail on the head that it's better to work out who it's not made by. 

All fascinating stuff again, many thanks. 

[Bassassin]

@Frank Blank Regarding a book, I don't think - at this stage, at least - it would be possible to write anything definitive, because what's known about vintage MIJ stuff has huge gaps filled in with largely speculative info. Because of the nature of the industry, unfortunately  a lot of it will probably stay that way. Also - I have to say, trying to find consensus among the various people studying & discussing this stuff online would probably be harder, more problematic and more divisive than Br*x*t!

@phil.c60 You wanna see some Brazilian porn, do you? Oh I bet you do...

Meet the Giannini AE10B:

But compare these two catalogue shots:

I've actually dug out a lot of pics of these old Brazilian beauties - they're understandably pretty common south of the Panama Canal - and they all feature very dark, typically unvarnished fretboards with shiny shell inlays, and tend to have a fairly big gap between bridge & pickup. And the manufacturer's at pains to point something out on the trc:

I'm inclined to think they used a sneaky pic of an MIJ (Chushin) Faker for the first catalogue pic - after all, they all look the same don't they? And who's going to notice? Apart from some sad sod with way too much space in his head and time on his hands, in 40-odd years' time.

Anyway, that's enough Braziliana - although it doesn't actually end there - Giannini weren't alone, so if you ask nicely, I might show you a Finch one day. When I think you're ready.

20 minutes ago, RichardD22 said:

Your sense of humour would translate well into a book too! Would be interesting to read about all the commercial elements and nuances of the fakers and the litigation elements. You've probably enough material from the posts on this forum alone! I imagine the Japanese communities would be interested too. 

Not taking anything away from the quality instruments the fakers made but it makes me wonder if these fakers put their mind to a single brand akin to Gibson, Fender, Rick etc how they'd have fared commercially and within the realms of popular culture.

Back in the day, there wasn't any litigation against Rick copies - in fact despite the "lawsuit" guff that gets bandied about, there wasn't any litigation against anyone, just a mistimed threat that never came to anything.

Which leads quite neatly to your second point - they sort of did. There weren't many well-known brands making copies in the 70s who didn't also have their own original ranges, and some, like Ibanez and Aria Pro II made the transition to high-end, pro-level original instruments incredibly successfully. Most people probably won't know that Ibanez' prestigious Artist range first appeared in 1973:

Interesting choice of bridge on the bass...

[Happy Jack]

Dig that crazy Ibanez artwork, man. Groovy baby!

 

[NikNik]

9 hours ago, Bassassin said:

 

Back in the day, there wasn't any litigation against Rick copies - in fact despite the "lawsuit" guff that gets bandied about, there wasn't any litigation against anyone, just a mistimed threat that never came to anything.

Which leads quite neatly to your second point - they sort of did. There weren't many well-known brands making copies in the 70s who didn't also have their own original ranges, and some, like Ibanez and Aria Pro II made the transition to high-end, pro-level original instruments incredibly successfully. Most people probably won't know that Ibanez' prestigious Artist range first appeared in 1973:

Interesting choice of bridge on the bass...

Yes, indeed. Another example of the (over populated?) EB3 and Rick parts bins being situated adjacent to each other.

I don't ever recall seeing that 2651B model before but do remember the next version of that model.
 

[RichardD22]

On 29/01/2020 at 21:32, Bassassin said:

@Frank Blank Regarding a book, I don't think - at this stage, at least - it would be possible to write anything definitive, because what's known about vintage MIJ stuff has huge gaps filled in with largely speculative info. Because of the nature of the industry, unfortunately  a lot of it will probably stay that way. Also - I have to say, trying to find consensus among the various people studying & discussing this stuff online would probably be harder, more problematic and more divisive than Br*x*t!

@phil.c60 You wanna see some Brazilian porn, do you? Oh I bet you do...

Meet the Giannini AE10B:

But compare these two catalogue shots:

I've actually dug out a lot of pics of these old Brazilian beauties - they're understandably pretty common south of the Panama Canal - and they all feature very dark, typically unvarnished fretboards with shiny shell inlays, and tend to have a fairly big gap between bridge & pickup. And the manufacturer's at pains to point something out on the trc:

I'm inclined to think they used a sneaky pic of an MIJ (Chushin) Faker for the first catalogue pic - after all, they all look the same don't they? And who's going to notice? Apart from some sad sod with way too much space in his head and time on his hands, in 40-odd years' time.

Anyway, that's enough Braziliana - although it doesn't actually end there - Giannini weren't alone, so if you ask nicely, I might show you a Finch one day. When I think you're ready.

Back in the day, there wasn't any litigation against Rick copies - in fact despite the "lawsuit" guff that gets bandied about, there wasn't any litigation against anyone, just a mistimed threat that never came to anything.

Which leads quite neatly to your second point - they sort of did. There weren't many well-known brands making copies in the 70s who didn't also have their own original ranges, and some, like Ibanez and Aria Pro II made the transition to high-end, pro-level original instruments incredibly successfully. Most people probably won't know that Ibanez' prestigious Artist range first appeared in 1973:

Interesting choice of bridge on the bass...

Brilliant stuff yet again! Those ibanez look lovely. 

[phil.c60]

On 29/01/2020 at 21:32, Bassassin said:

@phil.c60 You wanna see some Brazilian porn, do you? Oh I bet you do...

Ooh matron! Thanks for that! All you need now is to find some pics of a leftie and I'm done for............

[Bassassin]

8 hours ago, phil.c60 said:

Ooh matron! Thanks for that! All you need now is to find some pics of a leftie and I'm done for............

 

Spoiler

 

Kasuga lefty - no, I didn't just flip the image...

 

 

[Paul S]

On 29/01/2020 at 01:08, Bassassin said:

It appears that Chushin was one of Japan's biggest guitar manufacturers of the 70s era, and their instruments were sold worldwide with a plethora of different brands - in the UK, common names like Columbus, Avon, Grant, CMI, Saxon, Sumbro, Grantson etc were all predominantly Chushin builds.

 

How much would you expect to pay for one of these Chushin models?  I think one of these would probably represent my best inexpensive introduction to Rics. 

[prowla]

28 minutes ago, Paul S said:

How much would you expect to pay for one of these Chushin models?  I think one of these would probably represent my best inexpensive introduction to Rics. 

Some people value them over £500, so they're not exactly inexpensive.

You can buy a real Ric for £1k.

[phil.c60]

16 hours ago, Bassassin said:

 

  Hide contents

 

Kasuga lefty - no, I didn't just flip the image...

 

That's it, I'm done for....... eyes peeled, browser at the ready, wife out for the morning, what could possibly go wrong.....

 

 

[Paul S]

I've mostly seen Rics bottom out at around £1500 so two thirds of that is better.

[phil.c60]

10 minutes ago, Paul S said:

I've mostly seen Rics bottom out at around £1500 so two thirds of that is better.

And £500 is only one third so that's better still!

[prowla]

24 minutes ago, Paul S said:

I've mostly seen Rics bottom out at around £1500 so two thirds of that is better.

I wouldn't pay that much for a used 4003.

Check the ebay listings for competed items and sort by price.

Anybody who pays £1000 for a faker is a mug.