Rics what is the policy?

[4000]

3 minutes ago, ezbass said:

Which is why he is so opposed to the secondhand market. It’s nowt to do with fakery, that’s just a smokescreen.

I think I’ve only bought 2 new (well 3, but 1 was a grey import when they didn’t have a distributor). I’ve bought loads s/h.

[skankdelvar]

I wish much joy to those who play, buy, trade and otherwise cherish Rickenbacker basses. I defend to the death their right so to do.

That said, the controversy occasioned by these legendary events is such that I have recently been dabbling in a Western movie screenplay which I intend to shop around the major studios at such time as it is completed. I reproduce below two key scenes which go to the heart of the matter 

The story, all names, characters, and incidents portrayed in this draft script are fictitious. No identification with actual persons (living or deceased), places, buildings, and products is intended or should be inferred.

Edited December 13, 2019 by skankdelvar

[drTStingray]

17 hours ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

I think there is quite a bit of resentment here from some veteran Basschatters over how JH has behaved with the Mods over the years. I include you in the veteran category by the way 😂. That kind of thing runs deep with some as it’s become personal. It might not be quite as bad if he hadn’t acted like such a monumental b3ll 3nd at the time.

N.B. I like them and still have one 😀

Well definitely veteran at my age - if I was my 20 yr old bass playing self still, someone my current age would have been positively archaic and largely irrelevant - such is the march of time!! 

But this Basschat fixation - we've debated this before - Rickenbacker at the time was suffering from shops full of fakers in London - I remember asking a well known retailer in the guitar touristy part of London if they had any real ones and was figuratively grabbed by the lapel and wheeled out of the shop - not quite a slap round the face with a leather glove but not far off........ such was the Wild West nature of the market place and counterfeiting/ fakery then. So various manufacturers took strong action to protect their brands - all very reasonable in my book.

However th Basschat grandees were dealt with by Rickenbacker, it fitted the same process - in response Basschat implemented a complete selling ban - decent response and move on, I'd have thought. Was this 10 or 15 yrs back? 

Some members have thought this a tiny bit heavy handed from time to time but it is no doubt backed with sound legal advice. 

However, I do think (and have expressed this several times before) that some members here, and possibly the underlying tone of the forum, is in danger of being consumed by a quantity of long out of date and stale vitriol.

About time we moved on from that surely 👍 most of us seem to like the bloody things after all!!! Grudge holding is surely the stuff of the more odious of our politicians, leading businessmen, criminals and ex partners 😬

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by drTStingray

[drTStingray]

48 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

I wish much joy to those who play, buy, trade and otherwise cherish Rickenbacker basses. I defend to the death their right so to do.

That said, the controversy occasioned by these legendary events is such that I have recently been dabbling in a Western movie screenplay which I intend to shop around the major studios at such time as it is completed. I reproduce below two key scenes which go to the heart of the matter 

I think it'll need a few more action scenes - but this sounds excellent - have you any showbiz style ditties in mind as well - I think it's 55 yrs this year that one of Britain's most iconic bands of the v early 60s, none other than Cliff and The Shadows, were steered into panto in the West End (Alladin) - producing several songs which became part of their repertoire, in the process. 

Wild West theme is good but you need some baddies in the form of fakers and counterfeiters to get the whole dynamic 😀

[drTStingray]

2 hours ago, oldslapper said:

Oh......sorry. 

Apology accepted 👍

Edited December 13, 2019 by drTStingray

[prowla]

3 hours ago, Maude said:

I was watching that one, when it was at the top end of the £400s with 30 seconds to go I decided that £500 including postage was way too much, then it jumped to £700, unreal. 

It was nice though, but even so. 

Yep - that's too much for one of them.

OTOH, I have one, so it's good to know...

The outer two in the pic are Hondos which I used for projects and they're now gone, the middle one has someone in Scotland interested, the 2nd left is a basket case, and I'm in no rush to lose the CMI (2nd right).

[4000]

Liking the Greenglo!

[skankdelvar]

1 hour ago, drTStingray said:

Was this 10 or 15 yrs back? 

Timing

It was Spring / Summer 2013 and in some respects the biggest thing to happen around here for years.

The timeline

Phase 1: Hall starts a dialogue with the admins, necessitating complicated sequence of changes to faker image posting policy.

Phase 2: Hall gets snarky with Hamster. Admins draw themselves up to their full height and issue a chilly nolle prosequi while notifying members that pix of fakers likely to be pretty much banned

Phase 3: Hall throws down. Admins consult membership with poll on what to do next

Phase 4: The forum speaks. Admins ban sales of Fakers and genuine Ricks because, well, obvs risk of counterfeits

Phase 5: Hall wanders off to fanboi central the RickResource, claims victory over BC and trash talks our admins and the forum. Rickresource mistakenly thinks BC is banning any mention of Rickenbackers; uproar ensues.

Phase 6: RickResource fanbois mostly apply their moist, moist lips to Halls glans penis. Secret cabal of BC-ers plan to burn Hall in effigy

Phase 7: Ric sales ban imposed. Admins cool as cucumbers while certain forum members (buffs fingernails on lapels) swear eternal blood feud. This brings us up to date.
 

Resources

The threads 

 

Post of email chain Hall > BC

Hall's version of events

http://www.rickresource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=409369&p=801294#p801263"

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by skankdelvar

[drTStingray]

25 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

Timing

It was Spring / Summer 2013 and in some respects the biggest thing to happen around here for years.

The timeline

Phase 1: Hall starts a dialogue with the admins, necessitating complicated sequence of changes to faker image posting policy.

Phase 2: Hall gets snarky with Hamster. Admins draw themselves up to their full height and issue a chilly nolle prosequi while notifying members that pix of fakers likely to be pretty much banned

Phase 3: Hall throws down. Admins consult membership with poll on what to do next

Phase 4: The forum speaks. Admins ban sales of Fakers and genuine Ricks because, well, obvs risk of counterfeits

Phase 5: Hall wanders off to fanboi central the RickResource, claims victory over BC and trash talks our admins and the forum. Rickresource mistakenly thinks BC is banning any mention of Rickenbackers; uproar ensues.

Phase 6: RickResource fanbois mostly apply their moist, moist lips to Halls glans penis. Secret cabal of BC-ers plan to burn Hall in effigy

Phase 7: Ric sales ban imposed. Admins cool as cucumbers while certain forum members (buffs fingernails on lapels) swear eternal blood feud. This brings us up to date.
 

Resources

The threads 

 

Post of email chain Hall > BC

Hall's version of events

http://www.rickresource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=409369&p=801294#p801263"

 

Sorry - as I said previously my memory and age ......... lol. Only 6-7 yrs. 

Thanks for posting the info - having read it I can't really see the problem and Mr Hall's posts are really quite reasoned and even supportive of Basschat - they've said they don't care about Basschat banning Rickenbacker sales threads although think it's a bit OTT. 

I really don't see the justification for all the vitriol quite honestly and each to their own, for something notable to still persist after 7 yrs is, in my book, extremely odd.... and seems to prevent any sensible discussion about their instruments. It all seems a bit vitriolic to me - but each to their own 😐

[lemmywinks]

2 hours ago, prowla said:

Yep - that's too much for one of them.

OTOH, I have one, so it's good to know...

The outer two in the pic are Hondos which I used for projects and they're now gone, the middle one has someone in Scotland interested, the 2nd left is a basket case, and I'm in no rush to lose the CMI (2nd right).

Like the green one tbh, what is it?

Edited December 14, 2019 by lemmywinks

[skankdelvar]

3 hours ago, drTStingray said:

It all seems a bit vitriolic to me - but each to their own

 Indeed so. 

Mind, if you think John Hall comes in for some stick here you'd best steer clear of some of the Gibson threads of the last couple of years 

[NikNik]

2 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

 Indeed so. 

Mind, if you think John Hall comes in for some stick here you'd best steer clear of some of the Gibson threads of the last couple of years 

I followed the ones on MyLes Paul. Hankie J got some fkn stick!

Did you read the Joe Bonamassa melt-down?

[prowla]

10 hours ago, 4000 said:

Liking the Greenglo!

 

7 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

Like the green one tbh, what is it?

Cheers - I bought it for the colour (which I call "avocadoglo"!).

It's a Matsumoku, branded Vorg (by Pearl) and has a bolt-on neck, 34" scale, wavy waffle tuners.

 

 

[4000]

13 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Timing

It was Spring / Summer 2013 and in some respects the biggest thing to happen around here for years.

The timeline

Phase 1: Hall starts a dialogue with the admins, necessitating complicated sequence of changes to faker image posting policy.

Phase 2: Hall gets snarky with Hamster. Admins draw themselves up to their full height and issue a chilly nolle prosequi while notifying members that pix of fakers likely to be pretty much banned

Phase 3: Hall throws down. Admins consult membership with poll on what to do next

Phase 4: The forum speaks. Admins ban sales of Fakers and genuine Ricks because, well, obvs risk of counterfeits

Phase 5: Hall wanders off to fanboi central the RickResource, claims victory over BC and trash talks our admins and the forum. Rickresource mistakenly thinks BC is banning any mention of Rickenbackers; uproar ensues.

Phase 6: RickResource fanbois mostly apply their moist, moist lips to Halls glans penis. Secret cabal of BC-ers plan to burn Hall in effigy

Phase 7: Ric sales ban imposed. Admins cool as cucumbers while certain forum members (buffs fingernails on lapels) swear eternal blood feud. This brings us up to date.
 

Resources

The threads 

 

Post of email chain Hall > BC

Hall's version of events

http://www.rickresource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=409369&p=801294#p801263"

 

Actually, RRF isn’t full of fanboys. Fans of the instruments, yes (obviously), but not necessarily JH fans. There have been plenty of spats with him on there over the years and he’s stomped off in a huff many times. He tends to come back though.

[4000]

3 hours ago, prowla said:

 

Cheers - I bought it for the colour (which I call "avocadoglo"!).

It's a Matsumoku, branded Vorg (by Pearl) and has a bolt-on neck, 34" scale, wavy waffle tuners.

 

 

With a name like Vorg I’d say it’s probably Gornglo (a little joke for all the Star Trek fans)😉.

[Si600]

Are these pictures of a Rickenfaker falling foul of the whole reason behind this thread? Just asking before the balloon really goes up.

IBTL? 😉

Edited December 14, 2019 by Si600

[BassTractor]

5 hours ago, Si600 said:

Are these pictures of a Rickenfaker falling foul of the whole reason behind this thread? Just asking before the balloon really goes up.

IBTL? 😉

The way I remember it, the Rick ban has never been about discussion or pics - just about buying and selling. I think it was even specifically said we could discuss and post pics as much as we wanted.
AFAIK, the whole core is that if someone sells a copy (calling it a copy or calling it the original), that RIC then can sue if they think it's a copy. The owners and admins of BC can't be expected to be able to spot each and every infringement, and so the logical course then is to ban all selling of Ricks and copies.

Of course it adds to the fun that such a ban is also saying a resounding "up yours" to RIC, but OTOH, as mentioned above, RIC might not care, as all they're interested in is selling new ones, and people not able to find a used one might go for a new one instead.
BTW, as long as I can remember, all I ever wanted was some Rick basses. However, I've never bought one, and never will. Instead, Music Man have seen five of my moneys (and yes, I do think there's a huge difference between John and Sterling).

Edited December 14, 2019 by BassTractor

[prowla]

2 hours ago, Si600 said:

Are these pictures of a Rickenfaker falling foul of the whole reason behind this thread? Just asking before the balloon really goes up.

IBTL? 😉

Nope - discussions are within the site rules, just not sales.

BC decided to just ban all Ric and faker sales, to avoid any hassle from RIC, including any links to for sale items from other sites.

As far as legalities go:

1. It is perfectly legal to own one of these vintage Japanese ones.
2. The new counterfeit ones are illegal to sell.

 

[oldslapper]

17 hours ago, drTStingray said:

Apology accepted 👍

I have no “beef” with Mr Hall and I actually really like the look of a classic 4001.

But I’ve enjoy the humour on this thread though, most of which I think is not borne out of hatred, vitriol or resentment, but out of general banter. 
However if it is deemed offensive or in poor taste, or trolling then fair enough. 🥳

[skankdelvar]

5 hours ago, 4000 said:

Actually, RRF isn’t full of fanboys. Fans of the instruments, yes (obviously), but not necessarily JH fans. There have been plenty of spats with him on there over the years and he’s stomped off in a huff many times. He tends to come back though.

Indeed so. Any ref to the RickResource as fanboi central is intended as affectionate mockery 

Were it not for my inflexible policy of conducting permanent asymmetric warfare against Mr Hall I would myself almost certainly be a Ric fanboi.

4 hours ago, BassTractor said:

The way I remember it, the Rick ban has never been about discussion or pics - just about buying and selling ... The owners and admins of BC can't be expected to be able to spot each and every infringement, and so the logical course then is to ban all selling of Ricks and copies.

Of course it adds to the fun that such a ban is also saying a resounding "up yours" to RIC, but OTOH, as mentioned above, RIC might not care, as all they're interested in is selling new ones...

My good friend Mr BassTractor puts his finger firmly on the nub of the matter.

3 hours ago, oldslapper said:

I’ve enjoy the humour on this thread though, most of which I think is not borne out of hatred, vitriol or resentment, but out of general banter.

Quite.

No one here really hates John Hall or wishes to construct a fiendish pungee trap into which he might plummet, there to experience a lingering demise.

Apart from me, obvs, and no particular inference may be drawn from this revelation as for many years I had something very similar planned for Gibson's Henry Jusckiewicz, an animus which has been transferred to the increasingly absurd new CEO Mr JD Curley

Edited December 14, 2019 by skankdelvar

[Bassfinger]

I don't hate him, I just think he's behaviour was really rather pointless.  I'm not the crispest shirt in the wardrobe, but even I can tell the difference between a real one and one of broadly similar styling:

Everyone knows the far Eastern jobs are far Eastern jobs. No one anywhere, ever, has believed one was the other.

No one - that I can see - is trying to pass off far Eastern job as the real thing.

No one buying a far Eastern job for £90 is liable to be in the market for a real Ric, so it's not as if any business is lost.

You can't trademark a shape unless there's the risk of consumer confusion - no one outside of a mental institution is going to confuse a 90 quid plank for a 1900 quid 4003S - the 1800 quid sized hole in your wallet is a teensy giveaway.  Even leaving aside the 1800 quid price difference, Stevie Wonder could tell at a glance that they're not very alike.

So a lot of chest beating for no other reason that he could. In fact, just like a kid who is toid he can't have a sweetie, reading all of all this has made me want one of the far Eastern jobs just to poke him in the eye.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Bassfinger

[Dan Dare]

7 minutes ago, Bassfinger said:

No one buying a far Eastern job for £90 is liable to be in the market for a real Ric, so it's not as if any business is lost.

No one outside of a mental institution is going to confuse a 90 quid plank for a 1900 quid 4003S - the 1800 quid sized hole in your wallet is a teensy giveaway.  Even leaving aside the 1800 quid price difference, Stevie Wonder could tell at a glance that they're not very alike.

Reading all of all this has made me want one of the far Eastern jobs just to poke him in the eye.

Good points, nay excellent ones.

I dare say Stevie W, with his amazing musical ear, could also tell you how many days, hours and minutes the strings had been on it just by listening to a couple of notes.

If you do get a Far Eastern jobbie, do post plenty of pic's here so we can admire and comment on it 😉

[prowla]

39 minutes ago, Bassfinger said:

I don't hate him, I just think he's behaviour was really rather pointless.  I'm not the crispest shirt in the wardrobe, but even I can tell the difference between a real one and one of broadly similar styling:

Everyone knows the far Eastern jobs are far Eastern jobs. No one anywhere, ever, has believed one was the other.

No one - that I can see - is trying to pass off far Eastern job as the real thing.

No one buying a far Eastern job for £90 is liable to be in the market for a real Ric, so it's not as if any business is lost.

You can't trademark a shape unless there's the risk of consumer confusion - no one outside of a mental institution is going to confuse a 90 quid plank for a 1900 quid 4003S - the 1800 quid sized hole in your wallet is a teensy giveaway.  Even leaving aside the 1800 quid price difference, Stevie Wonder could tell at a glance that they're not very alike.

So a lot of chest beating for no other reason that he could. In fact, just like a kid who is toid he can't have a sweetie, reading all of all this has made me want one of the far Eastern jobs just to poke him in the eye.

You can trademark a shape, ie. a design; there is no doubt that the headstock and TRC shape of a Ric are fundamentally characteristic of the product.

The issue with the current counterfeits is that they also copy the brand logo.

[prowla]

30 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

Good points, nay excellent ones.

I dare say Stevie W, with his amazing musical ear, could also tell you how many days, hours and minutes the strings had been on it just by listening to a couple of notes.

If you do get a Far Eastern jobbie, do post plenty of pic's here so we can admire and comment on it 😉

We've had shops and dealers selling Chickenbackers as real Rics.

In the past year one shop got flamed for lauding the repair they had done to a lovely Ric, which was in fact a Chickenbacker.

There's a counterfeit on ebay at the moment which was priced at double its purchase price.

So yes, whilst there are people who can spot them, there are many who would not.

[Bassfinger]

17 minutes ago, prowla said:

You can trademark a shape, ie. a design; there is no doubt that the headstock and TRC shape of a Ric are fundamentally characteristic of the product.

You can indeed, but, as aforementioned, only if there's a risk of consumer confusion. It can't be done just for the sake of it.

Actual fakes, ie, items so closely resembling the original that they are intended to deceive the observer into believing they are the real McCoy, are a different matter entirely, and outside of the scope of my above treatise.