Pub gigs and setup

[Skinnyman]

Like many others on here, I'm a weekend warrior playing mainly pub gigs.

In addition to the drummer and singer there's just me and a guitarist.

The guitarist plays through a Headrush which is DI'd to the PA and panned to whichever side he's stood.

He has an FRFR speaker which he uses as a personal monitor.

In previous band I've always been part of a backline with two guitarists so amps and cabs have always been put towards the back of the 'stage' area, behind or in line with the drummer.

But with this band there's effectively no backline so inorder to get a decent sound that balances effectively with the guitar and drums, do I.....

1) set up along side the drummer as usual?

2) DI through the PA and have a small monitor in front of me? (bear in mind we don't have any subs and would rather avoid the expense if possible)

3) as an alternative to the DI above, just put my cab alongside one of the FOH speakers on the opposite side to the guitarist and, again, have a monitor in front of me?

4) try some other arrangement that i haven't yet thought of?

I've got a pair of Berg CN112s or a couple of BF One10s with sufficient amps and impedance flexibility to run any combination of them.

Again, this is small pub gigs which will either see us stuck away in a cramped corner or given half the dining area.

Any thoughts on how best to set up?

 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Skinnyman

[Teebs]

21 minutes ago, Skinnyman said:

Like many others on here, I'm a weekend warrior playing mainly pub gigs.

In addition to the drummer and singer there's just me and a guitarist.

The guitarist plays through a Headrush which is DI'd to the PA and panned to whichever side he's stood.

He has an FRFR speaker which he uses as a personal monitor.

In previous band I've always been part of a backline with two guitarists so amps and cabs have always been put towards the back of the 'stage' area, behind or in line with the drummer.

But with this band there's effectively no backline so inorder to get a decent sound that balances effectively with the guitar and drums, do I.....

1) set up along side the drummer as usual?

2) DI through the PA and have a small monitor in front of me? (bear in mind we don't have any subs and would rather avoid the expense if possible)

3) as an alternative to the DI above, just put my cab alongside one of the FOH speakers on the opposite side to the guitarist and, again, have a monitor in front of me?

4) try some other arrangement that i haven't yet thought of?

I've got a pair of Berg CN112s or a couple of BF One10s with sufficient amps and impedance flexibility to run any combination of them.

Again, this is small pub gigs which will either see us stuck away in a cramped corner or given half the dining area.

Any thoughts on how best to set up?

 

 

4)

You're welcome!

[Skinnyman]

36 minutes ago, Teebs said:

4)

You're welcome!

Thanks!

Thread closed then.

Sorted 😁

[Dan Dare]

Seems to me that the issue will be that, as you don't have subs, there won't (unless you have very capable top boxes in your PA) be anything to give weight to the low end out front. I guess you could use your Bergs for the purpose and have a single BF as a personal monitor, but that would necessitate taking almost all your kit to gigs and achieving balance between the Bergs and the PA might not be easy. Does the band have a spare power amp (you would need a crossover, too), so you could employ the Bergs as straightforward subs, or would you rather they were not used in that way?

There would also be the problem of the limited space for the band in the average pub to contend with. The simplest way I can see would be for the guitarist to use a backline and do it the old fashioned way.

[Teebs]

To expand upon my pervious answer - #4)...

If it were me, I'd use my amp as a backline, but DI out of the amp (post EQ) into the PA (leaving the PA EQ flat), and pan your PA signal to wherever the band want it.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Teebs

[Paddy515]

We have same setup  as you - guitarist and vocalist/guitarist, drummer and bass. G and V/G go thru pa (micing their combos), drummer sometimes goes thru too if playing a larger room but I just play thru my combo with ext cab behind me Eden Metro and everyone says we sound fine - old school but fine.

[Skinnyman]

6 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

There would also be the problem of the limited space for the band in the average pub to contend with. The simplest way I can see would be for the guitarist to use a backline and do it the old fashioned way.

Thanks. It's a good thought but tricky - the guy's wedded to his Headrush. It'll be hard to persuade him to change...

 

5 minutes ago, Teebs said:

If it were me, I'd use my amp as a backline, but DI out of the amp (post EQ) into the PA (leaving the PA EQ flat), and pan your PA signal to wherever the band want it.

Interesting. So the backline is there for 'heft' and to let the drummer hear me and the PA sound is just for added support out front?

I wonder if the answer is a combination of these two - use his FRFR as a backline in the normal way with my Berg's in the backline position as well but put both through the PA to project out front and keep the stage volume down?

[lemmywinks]

Without having bass through the PA you're stuck regarding monitoring really as you will have to provide the FoH as well as your own on stage sound. I'd probably just go with the traditional bass amp at the back arrangement tbh.

 

Subs don't have to cost the earth, we picked up a pair of RCF subs on eBay for around £500 the pair. They're big and heavy but were cheap and make your bum vibrate when you sit down within 10m of them. A good compromise might be to try a single sub and find the best location for it, half the size/weight of a pair and you will be able to use smaller, more convenient monitoring.

[jrixn1]

3 minutes ago, Skinnyman said:

Thanks. It's a good thought but tricky - the guy's wedded to his Headrush. It'll be hard to persuade him to change...

What is the issue with the guitarist's setup?  You can't hear him on stage?

[Teebs]

6 minutes ago, Skinnyman said:

Interesting. So the backline is there for 'heft' and to let the drummer hear me and the PA sound is just for added support out front?

Yep - your amp is 'old skool' backline - on-stage sound for the band and low end for the room - PA is FoH and for any other monitors on-stage.

The volume of your amp and the PA volume are separate, giving you the ability to control the sound levels more closely.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Teebs

[bassace]

Subs in pubs?

[Dan Dare]

23 minutes ago, Skinnyman said:

Thanks. It's a good thought but tricky - the guy's wedded to his Headrush. It'll be hard to persuade him to change...

I wonder if the answer is a combination of these two - use his FRFR as a backline in the normal way with my Berg's in the backline position as well but put both through the PA to project out front and keep the stage volume down?

That sounds the best compromise. Your guitarist can still use his Headrush, but the guitar will be loud enough to sit with the onstage levels of the drums and your backline.

[Dan Dare]

7 minutes ago, bassace said:

Subs in pubs?

Not such a wild or crazy idea. I use a compact sub (this one - https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/fohhn-xs22) that has onboard DSP and power amps that drive it and a pair of small (1x10 + horn) top boxes. Sits front and centre and takes up little space. Makes for a lightweight, powerful PA that can be carried in two trips from the car.

[Skinnyman]

31 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

What is the issue with the guitarist's setup?  You can't hear him on stage?

Last gig (which admittedly was a weird layout) we were in a small extension at the end of the room so my cabs were right at the back of the extension next to the drummer and the guitar was through the PA. I had to be loud to be heard put front and even then I was, apparently, quiet compared to guitar.

That was an odd shaped room but it got me wondering how best to set up so that we got the right balance of sound both FOH and on stage.

I'm going to try the suggestions here and see how that goes.....

[lemmywinks]

We use subs at every gig, sounds miles better giving full control to FoH and not compromising your monitoring.

Edited November 21, 2019 by lemmywinks

[Dan Dare]

6 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

We use subs at every gig, sounds miles better giving full control to FoH and not comprimising your monitoring.

Exactly. You can also place your monitors on top of the subs, which gets them closer to ear level and makes them easier to hear.

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, Skinnyman said:

Like many others on here, I'm a weekend warrior playing mainly pub gigs.

In addition to the drummer and singer there's just me and a guitarist.

The guitarist plays through a Headrush which is DI'd to the PA and panned to whichever side he's stood.

He has an FRFR speaker which he uses as a personal monitor.

In previous band I've always been part of a backline with two guitarists so amps and cabs have always been put towards the back of the 'stage' area, behind or in line with the drummer.

But with this band there's effectively no backline so inorder to get a decent sound that balances effectively with the guitar and drums, do I.....

1) set up along side the drummer as usual?

2) DI through the PA and have a small monitor in front of me? (bear in mind we don't have any subs and would rather avoid the expense if possible)

3) as an alternative to the DI above, just put my cab alongside one of the FOH speakers on the opposite side to the guitarist and, again, have a monitor in front of me?

4) try some other arrangement that i haven't yet thought of?

I've got a pair of Berg CN112s or a couple of BF One10s with sufficient amps and impedance flexibility to run any combination of them.

Again, this is small pub gigs which will either see us stuck away in a cramped corner or given half the dining area.

Any thoughts on how best to set up?

 

 

Congratulations you are lucky enough to work with a technically competent guitarist. He is moving in the right direction and you should all follow him if you possibly can.

Old fashioned backline does work in the sense that the audience can actually hear the band and it is so technically simple it is (usually) set up properly. That's about it, the mix is only usually good in one spot in the room. Because the backline is producing all the sound for the audience it is loudest on stage making it way harder for the band to hear properly with knock on effects on how they play. It damages their hearing and the high sound levels are picked up by the vocal mics so a muddy delayed sound goes through the PA and degrades the audience experience.

If you are happy to work towards it then the next step is to sort out FRFR monitors (just monitors really) for each band member and feed everything the audience hears to the PA. Our band use RCF ART310's as monitors, they are relatively small, just over £200 when we bought them and can even handle modest amounts of bass. That's cheaper than most bass combo's and if the whole point is to get the on stage levels down it should be enough. Bass spills back from the PA anyway so you only need the mids through your monitors. 

Putting bass and kick through the monitors does mean knowing they can handle it. Subs will help but they are over the top for a lot of pub gigs. You can get away with a single sub and most decent PA speakers now will handle enough bass (Think QSC/RCF/Yamaha/EV/dB etc)

Obviously this might mean rethinking but you too could go Pre into FRFR and use that as a conventional bass amp if you have to for other bands. There is a long and informative thread on FRFR here on basschat. If funds are tight then you could move your bass amp forward in front of the mic line for a while.

Times have changed, PA is much cheaper and more competent than 20 years ago, it makes no sense to be carrying huge backline. All we need now is quieter drums

[lemmywinks]

15 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

Exactly. You can also place your monitors on top of the subs, which gets them closer to ear level and makes them easier to hear.

 

I did exactly that a few weeks ago, space was extremely limited so I put my QSC on a Gramma pad on top of one of our subs pointing back at me, worked great. Can have my own monitor mix without having to rely on other peoples' stage sounds being the correct volume. Seeing as I didn't have to bother about positioning an amp on the floor it effectively gave me double the room on stage so I could move away if the snare got too loud etc.

[lemmywinks]

I don't think sub(s) are OTT for pubs btw, sounds much better with them than without and sounding good is the aim of the game so given the advances in portability and low price I don't see why earning bands would gig without them. Gives you the flexibility to do big venues without hiring anything in too.

 

We use the live soundcheck facility on our desk (record your soundcheck and then play it back while standing out front to fine tune levels) and the difference the subs make means we use them everywhere, it just sounds so much better.

Edited November 21, 2019 by lemmywinks

[Dan Dare]

20 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Times have changed, PA is much cheaper and more competent than 20 years ago, it makes no sense to be carrying huge backline. All we need now is quieter drums

All you say is true, particularly the final sentence. Short of persuading the drummist to use an electronic kit, one still needs to make enough noise onstage to compete with him/her.

[lemmywinks]

Usually getting a drummer on in ears can make a big difference in taming their volume. Won't help if they just enjoy playing obnixiously loud but when they can hear themselves clearly it can help immensely.

[BassBod]

Small amp/cab with you, just to get a room balance with the acoustic drums, line to PA for support when needed.  Keep it simple

[steantval]

5 hours ago, bassace said:

Subs in pubs?

Probably 90% of the local bands on the pub circuit around our way use them.

[skankdelvar]

Two options:

* Put the guitarist and his rig in the car park. Set the stage up like normal people do.
* Sack off the tech-nerd guitarist and get in an old skool playa with a Peavey Bandit

No need to thank me 

[Hellzero]

Another solution is the Bose L1 system. We used it for all our small gigs without PA. The advantage of this system is that you have return and PA in the same package. I was very sceptical about it, but once we tried it in a store (we made 400 kilometers to try it) we bought it immediately. And Bose service is top notch. The L1 amplifiers burned (really) because of an electrical power surge and they fixed it within the week as we needed it.

Now there are plenty of declinations of this model, just pick up the one that best suits you. For extra comfort for the bass, you can add a Barefaced One 10 for your ears and the extra mids you'll get.