Sales - shipping, buyer arranges it

[FDC484950]

I’ve noticed an increasing number of listings where the seller states that they’ll package a bass up, but it’s up to the buyer to both arrange for and take the risk on courier delivery.

Am I alone in thinking that if I were a buyer I’d give such sales a wide berth? As a buyer I don’t have control over how said bass is packed, I rely on the seller actually being in when the courier calls (having already paid for both instrument and shipping) and then have to fight with the courier should anything go wrong in transit.

Furthermore, if the bass doesn’t have a hard case and decent packaging the chances of it turning up unscathed are significantly reduced.

I have both bought and sold on here and in every case the seller was responsible for shipping. I have seen at least a couple of basses here that are right up my street and are too far away for me to go and try, but frankly there’s no way I’d pay upfront then sort the shipping myself - the seller should take that responsibility.

Interested to hear whether people feel differently.

[stingrayPete1977]

I've sold things on that basis, how I see it is this, the options are A-collect or meet up. Or B-buyer takes the risk. 

As long as the seller isn't ONLY offering shipping at buyers risk then it depends how much you want it. 

Almost every time I list an item as strictly collection /meet up only I get lots of offers of purchase based on them taking care of the shipping and sometimes actually sending the packaging materials too. 

If no one wants to buy it then so be it, I'll hang on to it. 

[Graham]

If were a seller, the reasons you state for wanting the seller to arrange the courier, are the reasons I'd want the buyer to arrange the courier.

Couriers are too cheap, we don't want to pay what it actually costs to ship something, so drivers and depot staff are overloaded and under-paid, so they don't care. Insurance covers damage, so long as the courier can't wriggle out of it, which they often do with arduous conditions on what they will and won't carry and packaging requirements.

When selling, I only offer collection: either by yourself or you're nominated carrier - essentially FCA incoterms for those in logistics - because I don't want to be responsible for a third party handling the instrument. 

I do have the advantage of being a Logistics manager, so can get my packing department to help with the packaging up of anything I sell

[hooky_lowdown]

I've brought a couple of basses, both times I arranged the courier to collect from the seller. Both times the items were well packaged.

It's up to the buyer to decide (through messages and pictures) if the seller might be a decent seller.

[leftybassman392]

I'd endorse the second and third comments above. Personally I don't like posting/couriering musical equipment at all for precisely the reasons set out by @Graham

I have a couple of items up for sale at the moment, and take the view that provided you make the sale conditions clear (in my case both items are personal delivery/collection only) then everybody knows where they stand.

If the buyer wants the item badly enough, then IME he/she will make the effort to at least meet me halfway. Just expecting everything to be delivered to your door - even if you offer to arrange it yourself - is unrealistic IMHO. Yes of course I want to sell my stuff, but I also don't want to put it into the hands of a complete stranger who will in all likelihood have no particular interest in making sure it is properly looked after on its way to its destination, and who will also in all likelihood blame my packaging skills for the state in which it arrives irrespective of the facts of the case.

Whilst I sympathise with GAS addicts living in places like Jersey or the Outer Hebrides, I have no plans to change my sale conditions.

ETA I try always to make a point of linking potential buyers to my feedback. I think this is one of the key elements in reassuring buyers as to my bona fides.

Edited November 15, 2019 by leftybassman392

[KiOgon]

I'm selling 4 batteries atm 24Kg each and been asked to post them! The ad clearly says collect only, 24Kg each etc.

However I have offered the interested buyer a reduced price on the 4, - £20 to help pay for courier, but he will have to arrange it at his own risk. Can't say fairer than that I reckon.

[FDC484950]

46 minutes ago, leftybassman392 said:

If the buyer wants the item badly enough, then IME he/she will make the effort to at least meet me halfway. Just expecting everything to be delivered to your door - even if you offer to arrange it yourself - is unrealistic IMHO. Yes of course I want to sell my stuff, but I also don't want to put it into the hands of a complete stranger who will in all likelihood have no particular interest in making sure it is properly looked after on its way to its destination, and who will also in all likelihood blame my packaging skills for the state in which it arrives irrespective of the facts of the case.

Hmm. I don’t agree with you there. If you only offer collection or meet-up, fair enough, but as a buyer you are relying on the seller to package appropriately and are accepting all the risk, having paid upfront. Easy for the seller. Why should it be unrealistic for it to be delivered? If you’re able to package it well enough to avoid damage and wait in for a courier why not post it? Isn’t this how eBay operates (like it or not)? What is unrealistic is offering a bass with a flimsy gig bag then saying arrange your own courier

I understand the point about meeting up if you want it badly enough but not everybody has their own transport or the annual leave/spare time to travel 200-300 miles and back. 

The other thing some people may not be aware of is that most couriers do not offer insurance, or cover up to the value of the bass, except maybe UPS (but then it must have a hard case and the max cover is £1,000) - not sure about the courier service Basschat has recently advertised.

Of course, it’s up to each person to accept the risk. Perhaps it’s better just to stick with collection, it avoids disappointment when something that appears great ends up being average.

[uk_lefty]

I think the risk of shoddy packaging is the same. If someone is going to do a bad job of it they will do a bad job regardless of who is responsible for the shipping arrangement and cost. The insurances are 9/10 worthless anyway if it gets lost or whatever so as a buyer I'm now more inclined to use a known and reliable service that will collect a bass in a hard case for 15-25. 

[uk_lefty]

Forgot to add... An item getting lost in the post is a nightmare. Last Xmas I didn't give someone my heart but I did sell a nice bass to someone in Belgium. He bought using ebay International shipping. They lost the package in their own depot. They knew it was there, they just didn't know where...... And it was somehow down to me to field all the questions. Eventually they found it and he received it 4 or 5 weeks later than planned. I'm going to stop using ebay soon, its such a hassle. 

[dave_bass5]

I normally only advertise larger items like basses/amps etc as pick up only (no matter what the guy in Spain thought that meant reticently). I realise this limits who can buy but i feel safer handing something over and both parties can agree the item is as sold etc.

I also chose not to risk having to chase items, give refunds etc due to items going missing or getting damaged. I also chose not to have to be responsible for poor packaging, although i doubt it would ever come to that, but finding and packing gear takes time and i chose not to want to do it. My loss if i cant sell the item of course.

 

 

[stingrayPete1977]

3 hours ago, FDC484950 said:

Hmm. I don’t agree with you there. If you only offer collection or meet-up, fair enough, but as a buyer you are relying on the seller to package appropriately and are accepting all the risk, having paid upfront. Easy for the seller. Why should it be unrealistic for it to be delivered? If you’re able to package it well enough to avoid damage and wait in for a courier why not post it? Isn’t this how eBay operates (like it or not)? What is unrealistic is offering a bass with a flimsy gig bag then saying arrange your own courier

I understand the point about meeting up if you want it badly enough but not everybody has their own transport or the annual leave/spare time to travel 200-300 miles and back. 

The other thing some people may not be aware of is that most couriers do not offer insurance, or cover up to the value of the bass, except maybe UPS (but then it must have a hard case and the max cover is £1,000) - not sure about the courier service Basschat has recently advertised.

Of course, it’s up to each person to accept the risk. Perhaps it’s better just to stick with collection, it avoids disappointment when something that appears great ends up being average.

Isn't that how life works? As long as no one is being forced to arrange a courier a take all the risk then that's how it is, if you've any concerns jump in the car, bus, taxi, aeroplane or whatever and go and collect it. 

If it's an item available elsewhere including postage then just buy that one even if it costs more. 

 

[Dan Dare]

20 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Isn't that how life works? As long as no one is being forced to arrange a courier a take all the risk then that's how it is, if you've any concerns jump in the car, bus, taxi, aeroplane or whatever and go and collect it. 

If it's an item available elsewhere including postage then just buy that one even if it costs more. 

 

Absolutely right. In the good old days (buying via Exchange & Mart, etc), if you wanted something someone was selling, you went to their home, tried it out and bought it if you liked it. People have become used to being able to click on something they wish to purchase and have it arrive at their door a couple of days later. That doesn't mean private individuals are obliged, far less compelled, to deliver things to you.

[ribbetingfrog]

Shops are responsible for delivery.

ebay sales the seller is responsible, regardless of what they say.

In my opinion it’s ridiculous for any seller to expect the buyer to receive a broken item and have to take responsibility.

Until the buyer receives the item they can’t be responsible for any of the process as they’ve never seen or touched the item.

imagine Amazon having a lost package and telling you “tough, not our problem!”

 

When I sell if I don’t want to take the risk I don’t post.

[dmccombe7]

I've only ever shipped one bass and it was the buyer that asked if i would package it. He had experience of shipping basses and gave me instructions on how best to package it inside its own case. He asked if i could take pics of the packing as i did it and how i packaged the neck joint area as he suggested. I then bubble wrapped the full case leaving just the handle open for carrying. He arranged the courier and insurance.

His communication was first class (a fellow BC'er if i remember right) I shipped it 24hr overnight service and he told me when it arrived. I really wasn't keen on shipping to start with but he talked me round mainly because he was so knowledgeable on how best to do it and he gave me his assurance in writing before i agreed that all risk would be down to him.

I'm still not keen on shipping basses but i do ship amps and things that are a bit smaller and easier to pack.

Dave 

[fleabag]

Seller doesnt want responsibility  of shipping ?  Buy it, or get over it and move on

Too far to collect ? Get over it and move on

 

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, ribbetingfrog said:

Shops are responsible for delivery.

ebay sales the seller is responsible, regardless of what they say.

In my opinion it’s ridiculous for any seller to expect the buyer to receive a broken item and have to take responsibility.

Until the buyer receives the item they can’t be responsible for any of the process as they’ve never seen or touched the item.

imagine Amazon having a lost package and telling you “tough, not our problem!”

 

When I sell if I don’t want to take the risk I don’t post.

Shops and Amazon are not private individuals. If you, as a private individual, don't want to ship something you are selling, you are quite within your rights. No ifs or buts. All the listings I have seen in which sellers offer to pack an item for the buyer to arrange collection of are those which specify collection only. You are not compelled to buy something from them. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Dan Dare

[tedmanzie]

On 15/11/2019 at 11:46, FDC484950 said:

I’ve noticed an increasing number of listings where the seller states that they’ll package a bass up, but it’s up to the buyer to both arrange for and take the risk on courier delivery.

Am I alone in thinking that if I were a buyer I’d give such sales a wide berth? As a buyer I don’t have control over how said bass is packed, I rely on the seller actually being in when the courier calls (having already paid for both instrument and shipping) and then have to fight with the courier should anything go wrong in transit.

Furthermore, if the bass doesn’t have a hard case and decent packaging the chances of it turning up unscathed are significantly reduced.

I have both bought and sold on here and in every case the seller was responsible for shipping. I have seen at least a couple of basses here that are right up my street and are too far away for me to go and try, but frankly there’s no way I’d pay upfront then sort the shipping myself - the seller should take that responsibility.

Interested to hear whether people feel differently.

I largely agree with this, seller takes responsibility for packaging, delivery & insurance. If they don't want to offer that then no problem at all, it's collection only (or meet up half way if possible).  If the seller packs it but the buyer has to be responsible  for courier and insurance then it's asking for trouble really - if both parties are happy then whatever, but personally I wouldn't sell or buy like that.

Edited November 16, 2019 by tedmanzie

[tedmanzie]

10 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

I don’t know what the statistics are for transactions here, but I wouldn’t mind betting that there have been more issues with the actual getting stuff from A to B rather than inadequate packaging, which is where I believe the real issue lies.

Thankfully I've never had a single issue with couriers, probably sold 50 + big items (not basses!) on here, eBay, Reverb and The Fretboard. Decent packaging is key, but I'm more usually selling rack effects, drum machines etc which are easier to protect. Guitars and basses are tricky as they are difficult to package unless you have a proper hardcase/flightcase (and even then I guess it can go wrong).

However some of the items I've bought from eBay I can hardly believe they've turned up unscathed. People have some funny ideas what constitutes decent packaging

I've read some bass courier horror stories on here though  I would always try to collect a bass or guitar if possible.

Edited November 16, 2019 by tedmanzie

[dmccombe7]

13 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

Yes. There is one bass that I’m very tempted by on here at the moment, but it’s in a very distant land.

Maybe you just need a wee holiday, pick up a bass while you're there. Job done everyone is happy.  

[dmccombe7]

7 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

I did actually consider that. My wife used to live over there for a few years. She speak the language and still knows a few families, but it’s gonna add 40-50% to the not inconsiderable cost of the instrument. You have to draw a line somewhere.

You're only alive once so don't put obstacles in front of yourself. The next gig will cover that additional cost 

Dave

[dmccombe7]

2 hours ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

If my Status sells, I’ll probably just buy it and cross everything whilst it’s in transit 🤞

Thought the Status would have gone by now.

 

[stewblack]

I avoid buying stuff if I have to organise a courier. No moral reason just can't be bothered. 

So I've always offered delivery or postage assuming others will feel the same and wishing to maximise my chances of a sale. 

However I recently sold something at a very very very reasonable price. Organised delivery to some pretty exacting specifications from the  buyer. Parcel arrived late. Unhappy buyer. I refunded half the postage cost.No feedback and me out of pocket. From that experience I decided that future buyers can meet me somewhere, get a fellow Basschatter to deliver or take their chances with Hermes and the rest. 

[stingrayPete1977]

Once bitten.......

[fleabag]

On 16/11/2019 at 22:39, stewblack said:

However I recently sold something at a very very very reasonable price. Organised delivery to some pretty exacting specifications from the  buyer. Parcel arrived late. Unhappy buyer. I refunded half the postage cost.No feedback and me out of pocket.

So the courier  company/or driver took their time and buyer thinks that was your fault ?

Blimey guv.  You must be a bloody nice guy stew. I would have told the oik to stop bitchin' like a schoolgirl and to foxtrot oscar.

[Burns-bass]

I think It’s a little off that the seller is confident enough to pack an item with the belief that it’ll be protected in transit, yet be unwilling to then send it. If it’s damaged in transit as a result of poor packing the liability would still be theirs. Personally, I avoid these adverts as soon as I see them. 

I’ve been buying, selling and sending basses for years but nowadays I think the sheer volume of items being sent and the cost-cutting nature of the industry means they’re more at-risk than ever, and so I avoid it wherever possible.

The last bass I sent had the neck removed, which was much easier to send and secure too.