Al Krow Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, krispn said: ...should I take a punt and replace my current gigging cab with a £1000+ 3x10 cab to double as FOH bass amp/bass monitor for my band to better suit the singer/stage volume/venue sound. Hah! I think fair to say the main beneficiary here is me as the bass player, being able to hear myself better and also my sound for the audience in that I'm not having to cut the volume so that it's not too loud on stage. A £1000+ cab is indeed a princely sum. But the fair comparison for me is something like getting a Fearless F112 which is £800+ combined with a RCF 310A as a dedicated bass monitor which costs around £300, plus upgrading our A&H Mixer, which I think only has one monitor output and certainly only one master monitor volume control. The approach I'm trying to adopt is a very incremental / non invasive one i.e. just replacing an existing bass cab with another one rather than proposing a wholesale change to the band's set up involving possibly a digital mixer and IEMs, which is a battle for another day. Edited November 11, 2019 by Al Krow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 Having said all that, this talk of IEMs has reminded me that there is an additional very neat feature on my DG AO M900 which wasn't present on my M900 v1 and which could get around the limitations of having just one A&H monitor output. I'll check that out later today to see if it provides an alternative temporary fix which I might be able to combine with an IEM for just me and report back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Just a thought, but with the rear speaker down close to the floor i would think the drummer might have trouble hearing it, especially if you have to keep the level low for the out front volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) There is some risk that the cab wont fix the issue you're having with volume - of course it might and if you wanna take the risk we'll all be wishing you well. If the F112 worked then why... O.K. let's not go back down that route! The question is will the 310 fix anything or just create a different set of issues to deal with or is it simply to look good with a new matching Berg head penciled in for purchase in 2020 3 drivers v 1 driver will do different things to perceived volume, dispersion etc, if the cab is at the front of the stage will the output of the 210's be greater than the back firing 110? As another derail... Have you and the band discussed using IEM or do any of them use them in other projects/gig? You never know they might love the idea or is it something you're not really that interested in at this or any juncture? Both of the singers in the band were the biggest fans of going iem as they got what they wanted in their mix. We use a QSC TouchMix which our guy bought used and it is perfect for us. Edited November 11, 2019 by krispn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 23 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said: Just a thought, but with the rear speaker down close to the floor i would think the drummer might have trouble hearing it, especially if you have to keep the level low for the out front volume. I'm going to turn the cab upside down. 16 minutes ago, krispn said: There is some risk that the cab wont fix the issue you're having with volume - of course it might and if you wanna take the risk we'll all be wishing you well. If the F112 worked then why... O.K. let's not go back down that route! The question is will the 310 fix anything or just create a different set of issues to deal with or is it simply to look good with a new matching Berg head penciled in for purchase in 2020 3 drivers v 1 driver will do different things to perceived volume, dispersion etc, if the cab is at the front of the stage will the output of the 210's be greater than the back firing 110? As another derail... Have you and the band discussed using IEM or do any of them use them in other projects/gig? You never know they might love the idea or is it something you're not really that interested in at this or any juncture? All fair points, matey. And IEMs are something defo worth discussing. We've kinda shot ourselves in the foot on this though as we upgraded our mixer only a few months back and the band (primarily the drummer - he and I are the ones who tend to deal with the PA and mixing issues) wanted to keep it analogue and simple and not go down the digital mixing route, so we ended up getting a big brother Allen & Heath mixing desk. We don't have a dedicated sound guy so it's a case of getting everything set up and doing a quick sound check before gigs and tweaking a touch as we go along - the beauty of an analogue mixer with just one monitor is that it is really easy to tweak. I think to get individual tailored IEM outputs we're going to need to get a capable digital mixer - or have I got that wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 That's a shame as you'd have so much more flexibility with a digital desk. We do a complete mix for the IEM then just push that FOH as the main venue we play has a sound system in house - it's always playing the 'jukebox' while we set up so no soundcheck for us. As for monitor mixes - you could maybe get an additional patch bay and use that to run other monitors (IEM) from there. It's not something I've had to look into - we just nabbed something that was 'futureproof' for out needs when discussing the new desk. You could contact A&H or local pro audio guys (Yamaha store maybe?) and ask them for advice. So the A&H zed60 is the upgraded desk right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 51 minutes ago, krispn said: So the A&H zed60 is the upgraded desk right? Yup this one: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 I think this one might benefit a wind back from the giddiness of new kit*....is your drummer amplified at all? I'm reading he isn't, so he's the limiting factor (one way or the other) in the band volume. Earlier in the thread, you said "But the problem is if it's loud enough for the audience it's too loud for the singers, when it's in backline." So how loud do they consider the drummer? If you position your backline close to the drummer and set the levels so that the rhythm section is balanced (dunno about you, but we always start the sound check with the drums, then balance the bass with that, then add guitar/keys/vocal on top of that foundation), would the singers still complain about you? Why don't they complain about the drummer? * I knowww...contrary to the spirit of Basschat, I know, but bear with... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 41 minutes ago, Muzz said: ... would the singers still complain about you? Why don't they complain about the drummer? He's way cuter than me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) There's your issue; keep your SC, take your £1k budget down to a beauty salon and get them to do what they can for a grand... Edited November 11, 2019 by Muzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, Muzz said: There's your issue; keep your SC, take your £1k budget down to a beauty salon and get them to do what they can for a grand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) I've had some sense knocked into me yesterday by a couple of mates on the forum with a very sensible suggestion (alternative 1). Alternative 1 - normal backline set up Guess I just need to get over my concern/prejudice that our 310A tops won't handle a bit of bass & kick drum plus full-on vocals & acoustic guitar/sax. My concern here has always been that as they are just 10" speakers and not particularly tuned to handling bass it's going to compromise the most important bit of the sound which IMO (and with due respect to everyone else on this forum) are the vocals. "put some bass through the PA: you don't need much, just a hint of it to get it out over their heads of the audience. The rig can supply the low end and the PA the definition. And then just turn down the volume from the cab so that the stage volume is not too loud." Bingo - great advice! Alternative 2 - keeping the cap at the front? Turns out that the DG AO 900 amp has a very versatile DI & headphone out set up. The headphone out and "post" DI out are both taken post comp, drive and EQ. The gain knob impacts both DI and headphone out, but then there is an additional independent vol control for the headphones and the master vol only impacts what is being sent to the cab, so in effect I have 3 independent volume controls to DI, headphones and cab. So should I want a personal IEM for bass monitoring, I could in theory just make use of the headphone out. Edited November 12, 2019 by Al Krow 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassfan Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 @Al Krow we never did explore the possibilities of turning the cab upside down, placing on a small revolving disc, attaching a light and spinning it around during gigs. Problem solved. 😉 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Don't forget the post di out (and headphone out I believe) has cab sim too on the new DG heads so you can sound authentic going into the PA/IEM if that's a route you take - you will have to (gasp) do some pc editing to load/choose your preferred cab sim but it's pretty simple so long as you have the right cable. Also your Stomp will/would* (delete as appropriate) have been perfect in this setting too as you could run an amp/cab sim to the desk via one output and have no fx (amp/cab sim) going via another output to the actual bass amp and with the eq and mic options have got the perfect balance of lows and highs relatively quickly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Al Krow said: I've had some sense knocked into me yesterday by a couple of mates on the forum with a very sensible suggestion (alternative 1). Alternative 1 - normal backline set up Guess I just need to get over my concern/prejudice that our 310A tops won't handle a bit of bass & kick drum plus full-on vocals & acoustic guitar/sax. My concern here has always been that as they are just 10" speakers and not particularly tuned to handling bass it's going to compromise the most important bit of the sound which IMO (and with due respect to everyone else on this forum) are the vocals. "put some bass through the PA: you don't need much, just a hint of it to get it out over their heads of the audience. The rig can supply the low end and the PA the definition. And then just turn down the volume from the cab so that the stage volume is not too loud." Bingo - great advice! Alternative 2 - keeping the cap at the front? Turns out that the DG AO 900 amp has a very versatile DI & headphone out set up. The headphone out and "post" DI out are both taken post comp, drive and EQ. The gain knob impacts both DI and headphone out, but then there is an additional independent vol control for the headphones and the master vol only impacts what is being sent to the cab, so in effect I have 3 independent volume controls to DI, headphones and cab. So should I want a personal IEM for bass monitoring, I could in theory just make use of the headphone out. I've got a lead from OBBM on here which is a dual 1/4" and 3.5mm one, which, before I had a wireless pack and receiver in the PA rack, I used to run from a headphone amp on my rig. you just plug your inears plug into the 3.5mm socket at one end of the cable, and the plug at the other end into your DG headphone out. Definitely the cheapest way to get bass monitoring to your ears...tho you'll miss some of the main band sound, possibly. I still think the drums and the bass should be balanced on stage, tho...if the drummer's louder than you are, then won't the moaners start on him...no matter how cute he is? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, Muzz said: I've got a lead from OBBM on here which is a dual 1/4" and 3.5mm one, which, before I had a wireless pack and receiver in the PA rack, I used to run from a headphone amp on my rig. you just plug your inears plug into the 3.5mm socket at one end of the cable, and the plug at the other end into your DG headphone out. Definitely the cheapest way to get bass monitoring to your ears...tho you'll miss some of the main band sound, possibly. I still think the drums and the bass should be balanced on stage, tho...if the drummer's louder than you are, then won't the moaners start on him...no matter how cute he is? Don't disagree about balancing drums and bass. That's always gotta make sense. The moaners will be fine as long as the vocal monitor is blaring and they can hear themselves! 😎 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 36 minutes ago, krispn said: Don't forget the post di out (and headphone out I believe) has cab sim too on the new DG heads so you can sound authentic going into the PA/IEM if that's a route you take - you will have to (gasp) do some pc editing to load/choose your preferred cab sim but it's pretty simple so long as you have the right cable. Just need to see if they have a Berg sim and I'll be good to go 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 The noise floor will always be dictated by the drums -is the singer finding the bass too loud or is it the sound she's not liking? You mentoned before you like an aggressive growl, pushing mids type sound. Is that part of the issue and would a more 'supportive' bass sound be less apparent to her? I know I always had a battle with a former MD in a choir gig that she likes a more treble forward bass sound and I preferred a more classic bass sound. It was a balance/compromise on many gigs to get us both happy. Maybe some eq tweaking and volume matching could help with what she's hearing - those upper mids could be fighting with her perceived vocal space? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) They've only really complained about the bass tone ever once and it was down to room acoustics rather than the bass as I was using a Yammy PJ, so not an aggressive Ibby or Spector. Sound check absent any audience in a large high ceiling function room and they felt the bass was sitting above the mix rather than below the mix and it was a volume issue. I don't think a couple of them have worked out what a difference bodies make! In terms of mids I'm kinda hearing from the great and the good on this forum that where the action is is at 250 Hz and a slight push there plus maybe a slight cut at 500 Hz to sweeten the pot is the way to go. Edited November 12, 2019 by Al Krow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 19 minutes ago, Al Krow said: They've only really complained about the bass tone ever once and it was down to room acoustics rather than the bass as I was using a Yammy PJ, so not an aggressive Ibby or Spector. Sound check absent any audience in a large high ceiling function room and they felt the bass was sitting above the mix rather than below the mix and it was a volume issue. I don't think a couple of them have worked out what a difference bodies make! In terms of mids I'm kinda hearing from the great and the good on this forum that where the action is is at 250 Hz and a slight push there plus maybe a slight cut at 500 Hz to sweeten the pot is the way to go. The Stomp has a really good selection of EQ's, and would allow you to set up each one for each bass, or even for each venue/bass combo, inc levels Probably over the top, but an option. Total recall every time and with the ability to send the signal to the amp, with a differently EQ'ed signal to the PA. Shame you sold it 😂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said: The Stomp has a really good selection of EQ's, and would allow you to set up each one for each bass, or even for each venue/bass combo, inc levels Probably over the top, but an option. Total recall every time and with the ability to send the signal to the amp, with a differently EQ'ed signal to the PA. Shame you sold it 😂 I have a cunning plan 😎 Besides there might be a Stomp coming up FS in the near future if someone works out how to use their Helix FX as a headphone amp. Edited November 12, 2019 by Al Krow Is no one else on the planet of the view that Line6 have got themselves into an 18 month product cycle launch mode? Namm 2020 is 15 months after the Stomp was announced, so I wouldn't be too surprised if there were some exciting multifx announcements... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 Getting back on topic...referring to the HG 310 and 312s: Hi - we will have these in stock in January. Kind regards Mark Stickley Bass Direct Ltd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 23 minutes ago, Al Krow said: I have a cunning plan 😎 Besides there might be a Stomp coming up FS in the near future if someone works out how to use their Helix FX as a headphone amp. Sorry, it cant be done easily, so......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 18 minutes ago, Al Krow said: Getting back on topic...referring to the HG 310 and 312s: Hi - we will have these in stock in January. Kind regards Mark Stickley Bass Direct Ltd Nope. Your going from a 1x12 to a 3x10 to get quieter? 😎 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted November 13, 2019 Author Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Al Krow said: Just need to see if they have a Berg sim and I'll be good to go 😁 As a fyi - the preloaded cab sims are pretty limited on the DG AO 900 suite: One where the HX Stomp wins hand down! Edited November 13, 2019 by Al Krow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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