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3/4 length or full scale for child learner?


darkandrew

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12 hours ago, jimmyb625 said:

"The guitarists way" is a good introductory book and came recommended to me by the singist/guitarist in the band I'm in, who's also a full-time guitar teacher (although not my daughters, I wouldn't want to inflict that pain on him!!)

Interesting that it's still used in primary schools. It was the standard work for tutors working in primary in my time, and is indeed an excellent series for youngsters starting out on the instrument.

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2 hours ago, dave moffat said:

I agree with what lefty seems to be hinting at. Could always go for an electro-acoustic, got everything covered then or stick a pick-up in an acoustic if needed down the line. Still need an amp though

Only 3 or 4 notes in a chord

Actually it was Skank that hinted at it. All I did was confirm that it would be a valid way to go in certain circumstances. :i-m_so_happy:

 

On a slightly more serious note, and just to be tediously repetitive for the hell of it...

Chords on an electro-acoustic is only one of a number of ways the topic can be approached. If, for example, the young lad goes through a course at school, he'll most likely use something like 'The Guitarist's Way' series as mentioned above. If he does that then he won't be seeing any chords for a good while as it focuses on learning the notes and where to find them on the fretboard using standard music notation (so he'll be learning to read music as well as learning to play the guitar). Not classical as such, but definitely more compatible with the classical approach than the song-based, chord-based approach that many Basschatters will be familiar with, and very likely to require a nylon strung 1/2 size classical guitar.

As I hinted though, not everybody wants to do it that way so knowing what sort of music and what sort of approach is anticipated has consequences for the choice of instrument (among other things). This in turn means that these kind of questions are important to ask (for me at least) before suggesting an instrument. Boring I know, but it's something I'd make a point of clarifying as much as I reasonably can with the parent of a new student at the first point of contact. In primary schools it's normally a routine procedure since most of it is laid down by the local music service (or at least it was where I worked). For private home-based tuition it's more of an issue that needs to be explicitly covered.

This is just the way I'd do it and the OP is under no obligation to take any notice of it. Since I no longer teach there's nothing I have to gain or lose by offering the advice so I'm happy to give it freely.

Edited by leftybassman392
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right, back to the OP

My suggestion is that 3/4 size is ideal for a kid.  I speak with no authority on kids whatsoever, but as the bloke that everybody knows plays guitar and asks what they should get for a child who is interested in taking it up, and as Lefty says, it does very much depend on the kid, and also the kid's school

A couple of mates have asked me what they should get for their spawn, on the basis that their school provides them with a guitar for lessons but they want one to practice on at home.  Simple answer - what are they playing at school?  Then get one of those.  Most likely a classical guitar, but easy enough to check. 

But the "they don't like the bigger guitars" is pretty common for younger/smaller kids, and having donated my first ever electric guitar to a mate's son - a no-name 3/4 size that I got for £50 - it's a great stepping stone until they are older and ready to move on to something larger.  The longer scale won't deter the determined child (and i know plenty of excellent guitarists who learned on full sized guitars when they were young) but the parents who asked for my advice knew exactly how easy it was to put their children off if it was going to be a struggle to play the instrument

Then there's the "they've learned on an acoustic want an electric guitar, what should I get them?" and again, it's about seeing what the kid wants.  A mate of mine very nearly spent a couple of hundred quid on a solid body electric at Christmas before finally heeding my advice to "take her to the shop and let her try a few of them out, don't just buy her one" at which point he found out that she really wanted a semi-hollow (in fact more because of how they looked, but that's everything to a teenage girl)

The rest tends to be determined by your budget.  If they're just starting then you probably want to keep the cost reasonably low, just in case they move on to skateboards or Call Of Duty in six months time.

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My main advice would be to pay good attention to setup.

I'm sure most of us here would be able to fit new strings and drop the action of a typical guitar set up like a cheese grater, and perhaps file the nut down a bit. Easy fretting is by far the biggest benefit to a new player. Ironically setup doesn't seem to improve with price - I think many manufacturers of high end guitars assume the player will get it set up to their preference. Bless all shops that get guitars into reasonable fettle before putting them on show.

Parent: "What's the most important thing about a guitar for you?"

Child: "Is it good for metal?"

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3 hours ago, leftybassman392 said:

knowing what sort of music and what sort of approach is anticipated has consequences for the choice of instrument (among other things). This in turn means that these kind of questions are important to ask (for me at least) before suggesting an instrument.

That really is very sound advice :)

Sorry for being such a complete and utter bastard earlier but I just couldn't stop myself.

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2 hours ago, Ricky 4000 said:

Didn't do you any harm though, did it? 👍 😃

I cured mine by fitting steel strings then painting a rattlesnake on it because it rattled so much.

I upgraded to my Kay 'SG' played through a modified Dansette and never looked back 🙂

With an origin story like taht I should be a megastar!

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My middle daughter (average height, arm length etc) started out at 7 with a 3/4 size Squier Strat. It was the perfect introduction for her. We did spend quite a bit getting it fettled so it stayed in tune. Once she'd had it for a couple of years, was regularly playing & serious about it, she invested her pocket money in a full size USA Strat deluxe plus when she was 9. She plays in a band with other (much older teens) now, and has even taken up bass (now 10 she manages a full size 4h Stingray). She picks up an acoustic now and then, but her tutor teaches her the RGT syllabus for Electric. You need to make it fun for them, find a teacher that your kid can gel with & by the time they are in their mid teens they'll be the coolest kid in the school. If your kid does take up electric, invest in some good ear protection too.

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46 minutes ago, sammybee said:

If your kid does take up electric, invest in some good ear protection too.

Some years ago I was in a guitar shop where a young lad was explaining to his Obviously Very Well-Heeled Father that the Marshall DSL full-stack on display was the ideal home practice amp. To his eternal credit, the salesman tried to dissuade OVWHF from this course of action, suggesting a smaller and less expensive option.

'No, if that's what he wants then that's what he'll have,' harrumphed OVWHF, oblivious to the hideous fate that awaited him.

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5 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Some years ago I was in a guitar shop where a young lad was explaining to his Obviously Very Well-Heeled Father that the Marshall DSL full-stack on display was the ideal home practice amp. To his eternal credit, the salesman tried to dissuade OVWHF from this course of action, suggesting a smaller and less expensive option.

'No, if that's what he wants then that's what he'll have,' harrumphed OVWHF, oblivious to the hideous fate that awaited him.

Poetic justice is often a self-activating phenomenon.

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9 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Some years ago I was in a guitar shop where a young lad was explaining to his Obviously Very Well-Heeled Father that the Marshall DSL full-stack on display was the ideal home practice amp. To his eternal credit, the salesman tried to dissuade OVWHF from this course of action, suggesting a smaller and less expensive option.

'No, if that's what he wants then that's what he'll have,' harrumphed OVWHF, oblivious to the hideous fate that awaited him.

A demonstration should have cured that surely?

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Probably got a big enough mansion to banish brat to the far wing of the mansion or build him a sound proof studio. You'd think a parent would be more wary of young Tarquin's propensity to crank the amps up as loud as he can 🤣.

Ah the joys of grandparent's revenge. I love visiting my kids and hearing my granddaughter playing Moonlight Sonata at warp speed on the keyboard (just cos she can) or grandson giving Highland Cathedral an airing on yet another instrument.

 

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7 hours ago, Bolo said:

A demonstration should have cured that surely?

Given that OVWHF was hauling out his credit card as I departed one must assume they either demo'd it at shop volume or never bothered with that part of the transaction.

Very similar thing happened a few years later in Banbury when I cruelly steered another OVWHF into buying his sprog a Martin D18.

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17 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Some years ago I was in a guitar shop where a young lad was explaining to his Obviously Very Well-Heeled Father that the Marshall DSL full-stack on display was the ideal home practice amp. To his eternal credit, the salesman tried to dissuade OVWHF from this course of action, suggesting a smaller and less expensive option.

'No, if that's what he wants then that's what he'll have,' harrumphed OVWHF, oblivious to the hideous fate that awaited him.

Opposite effect when I took my wife (who couldn't play a note) to GuitarGuitar in Birmingham to look for a first guitar. The salesman (for that's what he was) was only interested in persuading her she needed something with a solid spruce top. She saw right through him.

Went to Rattle and Drum in Derby and the helpful young chap gave much useful advice and she came away with very nice, parlour-sized Fender acoustic for about 2/3 of my expected outlay...

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19 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Opposite effect when I took my wife (who couldn't play a note) to GuitarGuitar in Birmingham to look for a first guitar. The salesman (for that's what he was) was only interested in persuading her she needed something with a solid spruce top. She saw right through him.

Went to Rattle and Drum in Derby and the helpful young chap gave much useful advice and she came away with very nice, parlour-sized Fender acoustic for about 2/3 of my expected outlay...

That's a nice story; really drives home the point about making a proper assessment of the student's needs.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 24/10/2019 at 16:49, Stub Mandrel said:

Opposite effect when I took my wife (who couldn't play a note) to GuitarGuitar in Birmingham to look for a first guitar. The salesman (for that's what he was) was only interested in persuading her she needed something with a solid spruce top. She saw right through him.

Went to Rattle and Drum in Derby and the helpful young chap gave much useful advice and she came away with very nice, parlour-sized Fender acoustic for about 2/3 of my expected outlay...

Solid spruce top doesn't mean expensive at all. Spruce is basically just a very thin piece of wood the same as the pine in your Ikea furniture. The piece of spruce on a guitar would literally cost pennies.

To have an acoustic which sounds good acoustically, I would recommend it too.

Small bodied composite top guitars sound like toys (quacky/plasticcy). I know because I have one, which I enjoy for intentionally getting a toy guitar sound.

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On 24/10/2019 at 15:45, skankdelvar said:

Given that OVWHF was hauling out his credit card as I departed one must assume they either demo'd it at shop volume or never bothered with that part of the transaction.

Very similar thing happened a few years later in Banbury when I cruelly steered another OVWHF into buying his sprog a Martin D18.

Actually, your advice was sound. You can sell a Martin for good money when the kid loses interest after 3 weeks.

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On 09/11/2019 at 11:26, Hermy said:

Solid spruce top doesn't mean expensive at all. Spruce is basically just a very thin piece of wood the same as the pine in your Ikea furniture. The piece of spruce on a guitar would literally cost pennies.

To have an acoustic which sounds good acoustically, I would recommend it too.

Small bodied composite top guitars sound like toys (quacky/plasticcy). I know because I have one, which I enjoy for intentionally getting a toy guitar sound.

Solid spruce may not be expensive per se, but it adds a premium that's better directed to better tuners or other aspects of playability. It's a long way down the list of what I would prioritise in a first guitar and when a salesman is using it as a way to push someone think is uninformed towards £400+ guitars rather than ~£150 ones I question their ethics.

What matters for a beginner is a guitar that is comfortable, well sized, easy to fret and pleasant sounding. The Fender fills all these categories, certainly doesn't sound like a toy; lack of bass is more down to body size than a laminated soundboard.

If someone asked you what to look for in a beginner's guitar would the first thing you recommend be a solid spruce top? I doubt it, it's like telling someone looking for their first bass that a through neck is essential.

 

That said, there are some nice, affordable solid spruce parlour guitars - the Gretsch Jim Dandy is my favourite, even if it looks like the lining was painted by a three-year-old. Could be a good beginner guitar although they generally aren't as well set up as Fenders, and the look can put off people who want a 'traditional' guitar.

 

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