Jump to content
Lespaul1

Speaker advice for 1x10 or 1x12 cab

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone, I'm looking to get my first bass and I'm going to make a diy cab. I'm actually a guitar player and I'm in full GAS for this purchase already, but I need some advice.

I'm mainly going to practice at home for now but I would still like to buy a decent product that I don't have to change down the line if I decide to use it for practice with other instruments. I'm looking to build a small-ish cab (1x10 or 1x12) that provides a nice tone at low volumes but could keep up in bigger situation. Will mainly play funk and potentially some rock. It will be used with a TC electronics BAM200 so looking for a 200W speaker.

So far I looked at these speakers:

Eminence Legend bp102 - Range 40hz-2000hz, Fs 35hz, XMax 6.2mm, 4ohms, 200W. I almost wanted to buy one second hand barely used for £40, I like Eminence and they provide build recommendations too, but I'm a bit worried about the frequency drop at 2khz making it too dark and boomy. It seems like this speaker likes big boxes and I'm not sure it will be too good for a compact cab I would like to build.

Celestion Pulse 12 - Range 40hz-3500hz,  Fs 45hz, XMax 4mm, 8ohms, 200w. It has a decent resonant frequency unlike the smaller brother pulse 10 and good frequency range. But celestion seems really popular for guitar speakers, not bass. Price £70.

Eminence basslite S2010: range 49hz-4500hz, Fs 46hz,XMax 4mm, Neo. 150W 8ohms. It's a neo speaker with extra clarity, and was looking for a 4ohms 200W speaker. considering the amp will output 100W at 8ohms though this could work.

So, in a nutshell I was about to buy the legend bp102 for £40, but because of the frequency range I'm considering the pulse 12 for £70, but at this point I'm wondering if it makes sense to go up to £75 in case this could be a definitive speaker.

Considering I'll play at home volumes, am I likely to spot differences between the speakers?

Any experience or recommendations you can share?

Thanks

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am actually familiar with WinISD, as I built a ported hi fi subwoofer, so hopefully there shouldn't be too many problems with that...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In that case model the drivers you're considering paying the most attention to the Maximum SPL chart, which considers sensitivity, thermal power handing and displacement all in one place. Overlay a few drivers, using a different graph color for each. The software is only accurate to perhaps 300Hz, so above that compare the data sheet SPL charts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi there, so I did my homework and modeled the 3 speakers as follow

Pulse 12 - RED - Cab volume 3 ft3, tuning freq 48hz

Eminence BP102 - GREEN - Cab volume 2 ft3, tuning freq 40hz (as reccomended by eminence design)

Eminence Basslite S2010 - BLUE - Cab volume 1.7 ft3, tuning freq 50hz (as recommended by Eminence design)

1566485155_basscab-tfm.thumb.PNG.9dc8c3adcac75fb91c634aaa0166a8b2.PNG1116258234_maxSPL.thumb.PNG.12c59131d7cdca0563e23270ecff8b07.PNG2094282045_coneexc.thumb.PNG.306c419840f3cbc4ec5895b57357112b.PNG

Looking at the transfer function magnitude, seems like the Eminence BP102 can go low with an F3 of 40hz. The basslite S2010 doesn't have a great bottom end (could it be the neodymium magnet?) end and the Pulse 12 is in between the two with an F3 of 48hz.

What else can you guys see from the Max SPL graph? 

Also here the frequency graphs

Eminence BP102

271038227_EMIBP102.png.427db4a278add510cac003a6d322e30a.png

PULSE 12

1360463125_Pulse12.png.bc5913f8a9207b6cc61a159d1070e950.png

Eminence S2010

S2010.png.f2157700f3d9385545cd0a4a10dface4.png

Noticeable for frequency above 2khz a roll off for the BP102, whereas the other two have a little spike around 2500hz.

What do you guys think? How can this translate to real world applications?

Thanks 

cone exc.PNG

Edited by Lespaul1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Model them all in the same size box, whatever you're comfortable with, and try them with the same tuning. When you model in different size boxes with different tunings you're not comparing the drivers, you're comparing the boxes. The spike around 2.5kHz is the driver break up mode, a bad thing with PA or stereo, but it's what's mainly responsible for what we call an aggressive tone.

Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice
Spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Lespaul1 said:

Hi there, so I did my homework and modeled the 3 speakers as follow

Pulse 12 - RED - Cab volume 3 ft3, tuning freq 48hz

Eminence BP102 - GREEN - Cab volume 2 ft3, tuning freq 40hz (as reccomended by eminence design)

Eminence Basslite S2010 - BLUE - Cab volume 1.7 ft3, tuning freq 50hz (as recommended by Eminence design)

1566485155_basscab-tfm.thumb.PNG.9dc8c3adcac75fb91c634aaa0166a8b2.PNG1116258234_maxSPL.thumb.PNG.12c59131d7cdca0563e23270ecff8b07.PNG2094282045_coneexc.thumb.PNG.306c419840f3cbc4ec5895b57357112b.PNG

Looking at the transfer function magnitude, seems like the Eminence BP102 can go low with an F3 of 40hz. The basslite S2010 doesn't have a great bottom end (could it be the neodymium magnet?) end and the Pulse 12 is in between the two with an F3 of 48hz.

What else can you guys see from the Max SPL graph? 

Also here the frequency graphs

Eminence BP102

271038227_EMIBP102.png.427db4a278add510cac003a6d322e30a.png

PULSE 12

1360463125_Pulse12.png.bc5913f8a9207b6cc61a159d1070e950.png

Eminence S2010

S2010.png.f2157700f3d9385545cd0a4a10dface4.png

Noticeable for frequency above 2khz a roll off for the BP102, whereas the other two have a little spike around 2500hz.

What do you guys think? How can this translate to real world applications?

Thanks 

cone exc.PNG

First of all great  advice from BFM. you need to re-do this with the same size cab to make sense of the response below 200Hz 'ish as the cab is as important as the driver . Above that look at the published responses. 

Is it the neo magnet?

yes and no, you are looking at very different drivers. The BP 102 is really designed as part of a multiple driver and probably sealed cab. it's got a heavier cone (mms) and a softer long throw suspension for deeper bass, though a sealed cab would raise this. all this lowers the efficiency, it is less loud than the other speakers which wouldn't matter in a multiple driver cab. The basslite has a more powerful magnet and that is what is affecting the bass response. The increased magnetic power increases it's efficiency but also the electromagnetic damping of the speaker which rolls off the bass response. It'll respond well to being in a smaller box than the BP102 as the damping will be coming from the magnet and won't need to come rom the cab. It's the extra magnetic power that matters not the material the magnet is made of.

Which will you prefer? well you won't know unless you build them all but this is my preference. The BP102 has a 'smiley face response baked in, it'll sound like an Ampeg. that bass peak is because it's an underdamped speaker but in the box you have the peak of that bass boost is quite low. I personally don't like excessive response below 50Hz, sounds great in the bedroom but playing live it just creates mud for the whole band. Have a close look at the upper peak of the Celestion. the vertical scale is 10dB on the graph and for the Eminence it's 5dB, that's going to be a big peak and a nice aggressive sound if you like that. Celestion calculate Xmax differently to eminence by the way. Eminence would rate it higher so the Pulse would be less excursion limited than your graph shows. They all have that upper range peak though, the heavier cone of the BP102 may be contributing to a smoother breakup mode but it's probably more complex than that

You might also think about efficiency. The Pulse is loudest and the BP102 the quietest by 2db up and down from the Basslite. you'll hear that 2db difference and definitely notice 4dB. 118db midrange efficiency is going to be a bit short in a band situation but you might get away with it in the rehearsal room. You won't with 114dB. 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you both for your answers, I'm learning a lot from this. I re-modeled the 3 speakers in a 2.1 ft3 cab (that's more or less the size I'm thinking of building) and a tuning frequency of 48hz. Colors are still the same so Pulse 12 in RED, Emi BP102 in GREEN and Emi S2010 in BLUE.

1165024381_maxspl.thumb.PNG.83ad8e584091e2c65b0ad966de49993b.PNGtfm.thumb.PNG.22abdd497a8337131345710f2aa42c16.PNG1945831674_coneexc.thumb.PNG.49983dd69279c2c4a392c13092d7e3ef.PNG

Looking at the max SPL graph, as recommended, looks like the Pulse will output a few extra db than the other drivers, especially over 90hz, (apart from 48-58hzrange ). I have two questions at this point:

1) This doesn't seem to match with the transfer function magnitude data, am I reading these graphs wrong? Bill should I look only at the max SPL graph?

2) Is the lower db in the lower frequencies going to be noticeable?

15 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

well you won't know unless you build them all but this is my preference.

Phil I didn't quite get what your preference is :) I think it might be the Pulse 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The transfer magnitude chart only considers sensitivity. If you're driving a few watts that's significant, but who does that? The very low end doesn't matter that much,  most of what you're after lies in the 60-90Hz pass band. I'd say the Pulse looks to be the best of these three. Try it again with 4o to 45Hz tuning. That rise at 100Hz could result in a bit of boom.

I wouldn't stop there, try some more twelves, particularly the Eminence Deltalite II 2512 and Delta Pro 12-450.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phil may not say it but I believe the SM212 from Beyma would be his choice based on several years design and gigging experience. The new Faital Pro  FR320 is Stevie’s choice. 

One trick with WINisd is to set the power ( in the signal section) to the rated power of the driver. Then look at the maximum power graph. You will see some interesting things. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Celestion looks the best of those initial choices. That upper peak will not be audible as a full-on tone, but it might give a crisp edge / definition to the middle & upper bass notes. Don't concern yourself too much with the fundamentals down around 40 - 50Hz as what you hear is really the 1st harmonic at 82Hz.

The Pulse 12 works comfortably in an enclosure of about 40 litres and the Basslite 10 likewise in a box as small as 28 litres.

Bill's suggestion to try some more 12's is definitely worth a punt. For a 200 watt input, the Eminence Delta-Pro 12-450A will touch 123dB and the robust Beyma SM 112/N will exceed 121dB for a 200 watt input. The former costs £106 and the latter £110.  With these latter two, they are so efficient you may not need to ever consider changing them.

PS. The Beyma SM212 mentioned above will manage 121dB for £96. You pays your money and you makes your choice!

 

Edited by Balcro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thermal power rating and displacement limited power are both considered in the Max SPL chart. So is sensitivity, making it more useful than the maximum power chart. A maximum power of even a thousand watts is of little use if sensitivity is only 85dB. Not considering that is why those who use stereo or auto sound woofers with very high power ratings end up sorely disappointed with the result. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Lespaul1 said:

Thank you both for your answers, I'm learning a lot from this. I re-modeled the 3 speakers in a 2.1 ft3 cab (that's more or less the size I'm thinking of building) and a tuning frequency of 48hz. Colors are still the same so Pulse 12 in RED, Emi BP102 in GREEN and Emi S2010 in BLUE.

1165024381_maxspl.thumb.PNG.83ad8e584091e2c65b0ad966de49993b.PNGtfm.thumb.PNG.22abdd497a8337131345710f2aa42c16.PNG1945831674_coneexc.thumb.PNG.49983dd69279c2c4a392c13092d7e3ef.PNG

Looking at the max SPL graph, as recommended, looks like the Pulse will output a few extra db than the other drivers, especially over 90hz, (apart from 48-58hzrange ). I have two questions at this point:

1) This doesn't seem to match with the transfer function magnitude data, am I reading these graphs wrong? Bill should I look only at the max SPL graph?

2) Is the lower db in the lower frequencies going to be noticeable?

Phil I didn't quite get what your preference is :) I think it might be the Pulse 

One other thing to consider, where are you? Eminence are cheaper in the USA but expensive here in the UK. Beyma and Faital Pro are less expensive in the UK. I could not say with Celestion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Phil may not say it but I believe the SM212 from Beyma would be his choice based on several years design and gigging experience. The new Faital Pro  FR320 is Stevie’s choice.

I really like the SM212 as well, but you save a couple of kgs with the Faital for not much more money. The Celestion 12 is another nicely designed speaker. It doesn't handle as much power as the first two but is cheaper and definitely a good choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ha ha I shouldn't do this so early in the morning. That paragraph didn't read well did it?

I meant to say that my preference is for a mild but smooth rise in output through the upper mids and reduced output below 50Hz so extra deep bass isn't what I look for. That's down to taste and the way I use my bass, I'm only interested in sounding good live. I use headphones at home so I'm not interested in a good sound away from the band. as such I wasn't attracted to the BP102's extra bass and wasn't worried about the apparently lower bass output of the 2010. That's personal opinion though, not science. the science tells you the frequency response to expect, experience tells you what that is likely to sound like but taste isn't something I'd offer an opinion on.

I'm completely with Bill, try modelling some more 12's unless you are determined to go for something smaller. I'd probably not recommend the SM212 particularly unless you want a lot of clean bass. It has has a great Xmax for the price and goes quite low in a reasonable sized cab so lots of deep bass but when I first recommended it it was £65 at around £100 there are alternatives to look at. B&C, Faital and RCF all do great drivers at around the £100 mark and over in the UK they are cheaper than the equivalent US products, as long as we are in the EU that is :) If you are really only going to use that amp then this might be worth modelling http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BAC12CL64&browsemode=category

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to add another option to the mix, I recently replaced an old 8 ohm Celestion 10" with a Celestion BN10-300X(4) in my Trace BLX110 extension cab. I'd contacted Celestion to ask which of their current range would be a suitable upgrade in this small (37ltr) vented box to make it 4 ohm, lighter and louder for a small 'grab & go' cab for rehearsals etc. I'm very pleased with the result.

 

Edited by Deedee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all thanks a lot for all your input! I modeled the Pulse 12 (RED), the B&C 12CL64 (GREY) and the Beyma SM212 (GREEN) together. Same size box (2.1 ft3) tuned at 48hz.

wow the Beyma really is something else! Lots of bass.That's even more bass than the Eminence BP102, although it is balanced by more efficiency at the higher frequencies. Based on what was said above though, will the bass be too much, making the result a bit muddy?

325376003_maxspl2.thumb.PNG.92eaeef28f9a6914a94d808c124c77ed.PNG

mag2.thumb.PNG.b4dd90ea8116928d78b01a1d92c5dcbd.PNG

The Beyma and the B&C are one step higher than the Celestion, hence the higher price tag. To answer your question, I'm in the UK and so far I found these prices

Celestion Pulse 12 - £70, Beyma SM212 - £92, B&C 12CL64 - £100 all including shipping.

Please fire any comments on the graphs, I start getting slightly confused on how the speakers will sound. I think the Beyma will be the loudest across all frequencies, potentially with a balanced sound (no peaks), and can probably work well in a small-ish cab. B&C probably a bit brighter overall, with the low frequencies less prominent and the Celestion of course not as loud and more focused on the mid-low freq.

The amp I'm going to get will output 200W at 4ohms. All these speakers are 8 ohms, which means my output will be half - 100W. Does this have any implication on the volume? Also does that mean - theoretically - that I can pair the amp with a 100W speaker at 8ohms?

I will model the Faital tomorrow, and they also make a 4ohm version of the 12PR310 :)

Edited by Lespaul1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where are you based in the UK? If you are anywhere near the West Country you are welcome to try out the SM212. It is loud and it does do lots of nice clean bass, the good excursion means that the transfer magnitude (basic frequency response) is maintained at high power. The response is pretty flat over most of the frequencies you get from the bass. Subjectively it means that it seems to lack a bit of top end as most other bass speakers either have a a bit of extra output above 1000Hz or are used with a horn. I gig with a pair of these (no horns) They are just kind of effortlessly bassy, in small rooms they can sound muddy but great in larger venues. I've designed a smaller cab for them too (30litres) which reduces the deep bass and creates a 3dBish boost around 100Hz which solved the problem of overwhelming bass in smaller venues. If I do go out with one cab it's the smaller one I take.

That B&C has a bit of a top end boost which I currently dial in with a bit of eq on the Beymas, They are neo's too which are much lighter and would also work well in a smaller cab. Choosing a cab size for all your speakers helps you narrow down the choice but remember each speaker will work better in a cab which matches it try experimenting with smaller cabs and changing the tuning for the B&C and you might find a better compromise. The output at 100Hz needs to be pushed upwards and you can afford to lose a little below 50Hz. a smaller cab will also reduce excursion and improve power handling where it currently dips.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you do decide to go ahead with the SM212 then there are a couple of threads about the cabs you can read 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

If you do decide to go ahead with the SM212 then there are a couple of threads about the cabs you can read 

 

Easy on the boy Phil, reading both of those is like doing two marathons back to back. 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Easy on the boy Phil, reading both of those is like doing two marathons back to back. 

I know, should have warned him

I've dragged the design details up to the front in each case though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to be honest, the response of the Beyma surprised me a bit, it is completely different from the other ones and the LF response is big. It almost feels like I have to contain the bass with the enclosure size rather than make it louder. I'll spend some time modelling this speaker in different enclosures - including the "easy 1x12 cab build" in the threads recommended above. I'm going through these threads and there is so much knowledge, thumbs up guys.

I still think that value for money the Celestion has a lot to offer: controlled bass, little spike over 100hz and after 2khz. It is not the best in terms of efficiency and it will prefer a bigger cab but still looks like a good option, also considering I can find the old model BL12-200x for £60 delivered.

The amp will output 200W at 4ohms, is there any particular difference if I choose a 4ohms speaker vs a 8 ohms?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You should typically get a little more volume from a 4 ohm drive unit. But (and it's a big but) check the efficiency figures of the drivers you are interested in. They will say something like 98db for 1w at 250hz and will give better guidance as to how much output a driver will give.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi guys, so I have officially hit a dead end and I'm really confused.

I'm not really too sure what to look at when evaluating a speaker. From what I understand I can afford to lose some db below 50hz and create a little bump around 100hz. This can be shaped with volume of the enclosure and tuning freq. Over 100hz, the higher the max SPL line the better, because it means the speaker is more efficient (louder). At this point I need to check the frequency graph from the manufacturer to check the response at around 2000hz, a spike here gives an aggressive (oldschool) tone. 

The speaker I'm looking for will be used mainly for 70% practice (bedroom/garage) and 30% rehearsals. 

Now I have mainly four speakers left to choose from (mainly the first two)

- Celestion Pulse 12/ bl12-200x (RED) : doesn't excel but ticks all the boxes, decent loud, spike over 2khz, not too bassy.

- Beyma SM212 (BLUE): I see why a lot of DIYers like it, plenty of bass which will allow to make the enclosure as little as 35litres without compromising on bass. BUT, it doesn't have the spike at 2000hz, and I'm afraid it will sound too clinical/hi-fi.

- Basslite s2010 (GREEN): this one was one of my first speaker considered, but when I modeled it I thought it looked terrible - the quietest of all, slight dip in the mids and oscillating spikes on the higher frequency. But a lot of people seem to love it and recommend it. Why?

- Eminence Beta 12-A 2 (GREY): I recently discovered it, it's a PA speaker but recommended for bass too. it is super loud (max SPL 122!). Not my first choice, but an interesting one on the max SPL side.

Here's the models all in the same box and tuning freq.

1240149031_2609snip.thumb.PNG.f79077c228d2e35d93c8950b740d6056.PNG

2609tfm.thumb.PNG.5039243c4683a4bd85c18820f8497160.PNG

PULSE 12

1835916287_Pulse12.png.32ff7b29c0c8da548cdd9e9cbdd90156.png

BEYMA SM212

1411334060_ScreenShot2019-09-26at22_28_19.png.c082da922c10bc72efd8395b34a0e919.png

BASSLITE S2010

S2010.png.e1022a567adc8695cc251cb7f48f9055.png

Eminence 12-A 2

313139797_ScreenShot2019-09-26at22_30_43.png.8043b39cc0044849106c6b9800a6f56c.png

 

Am I likely to hear a big difference between the drivers? 

How do these graphs compare to the ideal frequency response?

How do you judge these speakers?

 

Screen Shot 2019-09-26 at 22.28.19.png

Edited by Lespaul1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...