TimR Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) Phil. I’m aware what ‘all other things remain equal means’. I don’t have a problem with that. The problem I had was the assertion that a 4x10” cab is louder than a 1x15” because of the surface area. Mainly because there are no other equal things when comparing a 410 and a 115. Absolutely everything is different. They’re different cabs. To say one is louder than the other because of the surface area is wrong. When you put two 10” cones in a cab you alter a lot more than doubling the surface area as well, so again all things don’t remain equal. Anyway, sounds like Hooky has acknowledged that now in a roundabout way. Just for completeness I have a degree in electronic and electrical engineering which included a module in acoustics. These are basic principles. Edited August 27, 2019 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooky_lowdown Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 4 hours ago, TimR said: Anyway, sounds like Hooky has acknowledged that now in a roundabout way. How did you come to that conclusion? You still seem to be missing my point, 410s are louder than a 115. Surface area is one of many variables, which I've already stated is irrelevant to me. You seem to be alone in your construct that this is not the case, especially as you've already said you haven't A-B a 410 against a 115. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 I have to say that in my experience of connecting the same amp up to an array of different cabs the 410s, irrespective of make, have been louder than any of the 115s. Or before the scientists pull that apart, it’s been easier to hear when bass & amp are connected to the 410s - could that be frequencies rather than volume? I’ve no idea, but can tell when something is easier to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Model of the 4x10 in my Trace Elliot combo (Eminence Beta 15s) with an Eminence Beta 15 in a 'well matched' cab at 150 watts. The 4x10 is quite a bit louder, but the 1x15 fills in the bottom end. Like Ice and Cointreau - they complement one another perfectly 🙂 Must open up my 1x15 and find out what the previous owner had fitted when he had it swapped from 4R to 8R. Any guesses? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 On 27/08/2019 at 14:48, hooky_lowdown said: How did you come to that conclusion? ... Surface area is one of many variables, which I've already stated is irrelevant to me. There you have answered your own question. Your original assertion was that it was because of surface area. I have not said 410s were not louder. I said it was simply not the case that they were louder because of surface area. Stubmandrel has provided a nice graph there for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooky_lowdown Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 32 minutes ago, TimR said: There you have answered your own question. Your original assertion was that it was because of surface area. I have not said 410s were not louder. I said it was simply not the case that they were louder because of surface area. Stubmandrel has provided a nice graph there for you. Yes, the graph proves 410s are louder than 115s. There we go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Indeed, it's not surface area, it's all down to diameter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 More girth then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 18 minutes ago, hooky_lowdown said: Yes, the graph proves 410s are louder than 115s. There we go! You’ve lost me again. You stated 410s are louder because of the surface area. That is an incorrect statement. No one disputed that 410s are louder. Anywhere. Full stop. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) I used to hate Trace Elliot gear. So many rehearsal studios. I'd used in the past, had Ancient TE amps and cabs (usually 410s), which sounded unsubtle and middy sounding. But then, a couple of years ago, I had the chance to play through a TE GP7 combo, with a 15" speaker and the sound from my Precision was exactly what I'd been looking for all these years. So I don't know if my previous experience with TE gear was due to it being ancient and knackered , or whatever, but that GP7 combo sounded fantastic. And loud for it's wattage. Edited August 28, 2019 by gjones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooky_lowdown Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 16 minutes ago, TimR said: You’ve lost me again. You stated 410s are louder because of the surface area. That is an incorrect statement. No one disputed that 410s are louder. Anywhere. Full stop. I stated 410 is louder than 115 - full stop, this was and is my only point. I mentioned surface area as one variable to this, not the only factor. As you like theoretical stuff, if I had two identical 8 inch speakers, and I reconed one with a 15 inch cone. Which would be louder, the 8 or 15 inch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 On 28/08/2019 at 20:23, hooky_lowdown said: I stated 410 is louder than 115 - full stop, this was and is my only point. I mentioned surface area as one variable to this, not the only factor. As you like theoretical stuff, if I had two identical 8 inch speakers, and I reconed one with a 15 inch cone. Which would be louder, the 8 or 15 inch? "Something which may have been overlooked is that the more speaker surface area, the louder also. A 410 vs 115 using the same amp and ohms, the 410 will be far louder." A bit ambiguous as to whether it's the just surface area or the surface area and dozens of other variables, but it does rather imply to me that the surface area is the principal reason for the difference. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Incidentally, Trace Elliot watts may be louder but they sound nastier too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soledad Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 3 hours ago, tauzero said: Incidentally, Trace Elliot watts may be louder but they sound nastier too. You never expected to get away with that did you. Please clarify 'nastier' and if it's a negative define nicer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted August 30, 2019 Author Share Posted August 30, 2019 4 hours ago, Soledad said: You never expected to get away with that did you. Please clarify 'nastier' and if it's a negative define nicer. chatting to a fellow bass player, he uses Ashdown rather than the Trace Elliot I do, because Ashdown sounded 'cleaner' whereas I prefer the 'dirtier' sound of Trace, it's a difficult thing to put into words without using the word 'heft' 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Who wants to be Technical? Well nobody does really but as others have said, there are too many other variables to take account to just say a 4x10 is louder than a 1x15. Efficiency, Xmax, impedance and many more impact the perceived loudness/volume of a cabinet. Is it sealed, ported or some form of horn? It is like saying a 3.5 litre car is faster than a 1 litre. Put the 3.5 litre engine in a Hummer and my 1.0 litre Turbocharged Suzuki will our accelerate and have a higher top speed. What you can say is that is 4 10” drivers should be louder than a single 15” if they are in similar cabinets and the drivers are of similar quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 33 minutes ago, PaulWarning said: chatting to a fellow bass player, he uses Ashdown rather than the Trace Elliot I do, because Ashdown sounded 'cleaner' whereas I prefer the 'dirtier' sound of Trace, it's a difficult thing to put into words without using the word 'heft' 😊 The designs I have seen for 'classic' Trace Elliot power amps are designs that would stand up fro good quality hifi of the time, with very low levels of harmonic distortion. I have no doubt the 'Trace Elliot sound' comes from their preamps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 19 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said: if they are in similar cabinets If they are in properly tuned cabinets for the application. If you put them in ‘similar’ cabinets you’ll get unexpected results. You can’t for example build a cabinet for a 410 and then just replace the front baffle with one with a 15” hole in it and expect it to still work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Stub Mandrel said: I have no doubt the 'Trace Elliot sound' comes from their preamps. Definitely. The GP7 that I had, had a bunch of ‘preshape’ buttons and a compression knob. I loved the sound of that amp. The problem was it was heavier than Saturn and I was losing skin off my knuckles and spindles from my banisters every gig. It started misbehaving and I found a dry joint on a resistor, but once an amp of that age starts to be unreliable it’s time for a new one. Found the Warwick PRO FET 5.1 to be a nice replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 6 pages in, in a topic covering loudness of cabs, and the expression "volume displacement" hasn't surfaced yet? Shame on you lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 minute ago, MoonBassAlpha said: 6 pages in, in a topic covering loudness of cabs, and the expression "volume displacement" hasn't surfaced yet? Shame on you lot! Not even touched on off-axis, dispersion, combing... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 (edited) Come on folks. We all know that it's nothing to do with any of the above. It simply comes down to "heft". Edited September 2, 2019 by Count Bassy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 On 30/08/2019 at 10:32, MoonBassAlpha said: 6 pages in, in a topic covering loudness of cabs, and the expression "volume displacement" hasn't surfaced yet? Shame on you lot! On 30/08/2019 at 10:34, TimR said: Not even touched on off-axis, dispersion, combing... I think we all know that there’s no need to, as TE watts are just louder..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted September 4, 2019 Author Share Posted September 4, 2019 Finally, proof that Trace Elliot amps really do go louder 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 19 minutes ago, PaulWarning said: Finally, proof that Trace Elliot amps really do go louder Ha someone has obviously fitted extra MOSFETs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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