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3 hours ago, Graham said:

I've not read through all this thread, so it may have been covered already, but I'm pretty sure Stephen Wilson hates gigging.

At the end of Porcupine Tree and now under his solo outfit he keeps inflating the fee, hoping I suspect that promoters turn him down, and then sighing and taking the money when they say yes.

Who does a what now?

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5 hours ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

Who does a what now?

Ex Porcupine Tree frontman and now solo artist Stephen Wilson.

Quite well known, certainly around these parts.

I was suggesting that it seems like he doesn't like playing live, but then gets offered money he can't refuse.

I possibly didn't express that with perfect clarity as last night, but I'd have thought the gist was pretty clear.

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1 hour ago, Graham said:

Ex Porcupine Tree frontman and now solo artist Stephen Wilson.

Quite well known, certainly around these parts.

I was suggesting that it seems like he doesn't like playing live, but then gets offered money he can't refuse.

I possibly didn't express that with perfect clarity as last night, but I'd have thought the gist was pretty clear.

My apologies. In the cold light of day it makes perfect sense. Last night, post gig and under the influence of several vodkas it was an unbreakable code. :laugh1:

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1 hour ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

My apologies. In the cold light of day it makes perfect sense. Last night, post gig and under the influence of several vodkas it was an unbreakable code. :laugh1:

Sorry 😳 I was kept up by a toddler who doesn't like the heat and was a bit grumpy pre-coffee 😄

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15 hours ago, Bluewine said:

I can go with that. Personality traits can prevent some from gigging.

Personality traits like the hatred of gigging?

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40 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Personality traits like the hatred of gigging?

A general hatred of the great unwashed would certainly qualify. 

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5 hours ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

A general hatred of the great unwashed would certainly qualify. 

Strangely, I also hate them, but I have a singer next to me that seems to love people, and deflect them from me as much as is possible.

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I’ve just been working stagecrew at the Colne Blues Festival and on the Sunday had a few beers with a drummer from Ipswich, who set off at 5.00am to drive up to Lancashire to do a couple of gigs, all to get paid a couple of hundred quid and a night in a Holiday Inn. This guy was in his mid-sixties and says that he still keeps busy and will do every decent gig he gets offered (as well as teaching drums, running a local jam session, a bit of PA hire and doing a show on a local radio station). I think that we were all up to about three in the morning, with all the crew and musos from the bands playing at the festival who were staying over commandeering the bar of the local Holiday Inn.

The point is that no one is forcing you to do this. This guy is in his sixties and still playing every week with no intention of dialling it back. There are certain sacrifices you have to make to be a musician, both in terms of learning to play and the lifestyle involved in gigging regularly. If you have issues dealing with other people, don’t like crowds, the camaraderie you get playing with other musicians, or you are not prepared (or able) to organise your life to allow you to take gigs (the killer for lots of decent players) then you just shouldn’t do it... 

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20 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

The point is that no one is forcing you to do this. This guy is in his sixties and still playing every week with no intention of dialling it back. There are certain sacrifices you have to make to be a musician, both in terms of learning to play and the lifestyle involved in gigging regularly. If you have issues dealing with other people, don’t like crowds, the camaraderie you get playing with other musicians, or you are not prepared (or able) to organise your life to allow you to take gigs (the killer for lots of decent players) then you just shouldn’t do it... 

I agree to a point. The point being that there are musicians that need to do it chiefly for monetary gain, and lack alternative employment skills to follow a different path. Mortgages, family commitments etc. are the primary motivators. It becomes a job and like many other jobs, there are those that are happy to do it and others who would much prefer an alternative. 

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1 hour ago, leroydiamond said:

I agree to a point. The point being that there are musicians that need to do it chiefly for monetary gain, and lack alternative employment skills to follow a different path. Mortgages, family commitments etc. are the primary motivators. It becomes a job and like many other jobs, there are those that are happy to do it and others who would much prefer an alternative. 

To be honest, building a career as a musician is not the easiest thing to do and is not generally particularly lucrative. Anyone would have a much easier life developing other employment skills rather than committing to being a professional musician, unless they really loved doing it.

I have a friend who has been a pro drummer all his life. He went and got his first (part time) office job in his fifties to give him a steady income alongside his drum teaching. He did this, not because he hated gigging, but so he could afford to take lower paying gigs with his mates playing music he liked, rather than his regular function band gig where he said that the highlight was always “picking up the money at the end of the night”!

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4 minutes ago, peteb said:

To be honest, building a career as a musician is not the easiest thing to do and is not generally particularly lucrative. Anyone would have a much easier life developing other employment skills rather than committing to being a professional musician, unless they really loved doing it.

I have a friend who has been a pro drummer all his life. He went and got his first (part time) office job in his fifties to give him a steady income alongside his drum teaching. He did this, not because he hated gigging, but so he could afford to take lower paying gigs with his mates playing music he liked, rather than his regular function band gig where he said that the highlight was always “picking up the money at the end of the night”!

The wedding, corporate and in particular country music scene on this side of the water is very lucrative. As a result, guys that I know, have made a very good living from it and hats off. A B-list artist in the country scene only recently told me about his income and my jaw hit the floor. Cannot see him or his band opting for an office job anytime soon. 

 

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2 minutes ago, leroydiamond said:

The wedding, corporate and in particular country music scene on this side of the water is very lucrative. As a result, guys that I know, have made a very good living from it and hats off. A B-list artist in the country scene only recently told me about his income and my jaw hit the floor. Cannot see him or his band opting for an office job anytime soon. 

 

That may well be true, but it still takes a lot of effort and commitment to establish yourself to get those very sought after gigs. 

The vast majority of pro musicians have to struggle to make a reasonable, yet very precarious, living. Most would have been far better off financially if they had put that effort and commitment into building a more mainstream career. I once went for a lesson with a guy who has an occasional very big paying gig with a very famous British rock band. He said that the uncertain income sometimes gets to him; some years he may be extremely well off but he has to bank most of that as the next year he could be struggling to pay the mortgage...! 

 

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The ocassional gig with however a big star is precarious for sure. But for as long as there are weddings, functions and a love for country music (as is the case on thiis side of the water), there will be bands to do the work. The latter offers a degree of consistency that the former does not. C'est la vie.

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On 14/07/2019 at 00:27, Newfoundfreedom said:

I can't be the only one, can I?

Hate is a bit too strong a word in my case, but I haven't played a single gig yet this year and that doesn't bother me in the least. I did two last year, both sub gigs I got calls for on the day of the show. I've always preferred working on the technical/production side as far as live music, but I stopped doing that several years ago and don't really miss that either. Any and all of that could change tomorrow, or not. But the important thing is that I'm enjoying playing bass more these days than ever before, either by myself or in a few different regular jams I'm involved in.

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12 hours ago, leroydiamond said:

The wedding, corporate and in particular country music scene on this side of the water is very lucrative. As a result, guys that I know, have made a very good living from it and hats off. A B-list artist in the country scene only recently told me about his income and my jaw hit the floor. Cannot see him or his band opting for an office job anytime soon. 

 

When you say "hats off", presumably that'd be Top Hats, Bowler Hats and Stetsons respectively?

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, mangotango said:

When you say "hats off", presumably that'd be Top Hats, Bowler Hats and Stetsons respectively?

Its a bit early in the day for this🤣🤣

Edited by leroydiamond
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I know I've previously replied to this thread, in support of gigging... but here goes again....

Saturday I had two of the best gigs I've ever played. The 2nd of which confirmed why I do this bass playing malarky :)
1st gig was great, it was al-fresco in a social club beer garden, and all went well with a happy audience and landlord, and we were asked back and complimented by most of the crowd there.

Second gig was a completely different al-fresco gig, with a different band, different set (very) and different audience. We were at a restaurant / bar, overlooking the sea, on a beautiful warm evening, with a very appreciative crowd. Much of it was a last minute set list, which altered as we went along - we added some songs we may have jammed only once or twice, and a few songs I'd never even played with these guys - luckily, I could see the singer-guitarists left hand and could hear him well. 

That 2nd gig was probably my favourite gig ever, and we played a much longer 2nd set than I could have previously imagined
We played all sorts of stuff, and the landlord fed & watered us, paid us more than he'd originally agreed, and asked us to play there on a more regular basis :)
I've never had so many compliments on my sound, playing, and style and broad choice of songs before... I left there on a real high, I have to say

There's a lesson here too, I think. Now that 2nd gig wasn't originally booked (I wasn't strictly "available") but as a late booking, I'd said I would get there to play maybe just the 2nd set - if traffic allowed and I could get there on time, without too much stress. In fact, I rocked up mid first set, and plugged into my practice amp (cos I leave it at the guitarists' studio - so he set it up for me) Heck, my bass had even stayed in tune during transit - and I just jumped in, straight after unpacking my bass :)

We didn't strictly have a set prepared (as the booking had been taken late - in any case, with this band, I don't usually do this set, we are a 5 piece, and suddenly, we were a 3 piece doing more acoustic type songs) I was concerned my praccy amp wouldn't handle playing out doors, but it coped admirably, and sounded superb. It's a 250W TC Electronic BG-250 208 which I didn't think would cope, amid guitar, vocals and some loud keys. 

Anyhow, someone in the audience complimented us on playing a couple of Nick Drake songs - she had been in school with the great man himself, and said she'd never heard anyone cover him before....
Right now, I feel I could never give up gigging. I'm still on a high, from two great gigs, especially as both venues want us (each band) back again

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Back to the OP, I think he's done exactly the right thing here - drop out now rather than dragging it out, or expecting the rest of the band to change what they are doing in order to fit in with what he wants.  It's fine to stop doing something you don't enjoy, it's not fine to expect other people to stop doing it too

A mate of mine was in a band (a reasonably well known, and certainly well paid tribute act) where the lead guitarist announced that he wouldn't play more than a couple of gigs a month and wouldn't play outside of their local area, right at the point when the band was trying to build their reputation on the back of some very positive publicity and put together mini tours.  There were some family issues behind it and they didn't want to sack him, but when they suggested that they could get a dep in, or even another permanent lead guitarist for the gigs he didn't want to do, he spat his dummy out at the thought that they might even consider playing without him.

Needless to say it ended in a sacking soon after, and a permanently damaged friendship

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1 hour ago, Monkey Steve said:

Back to the OP, I think he's done exactly the right thing here - drop out now rather than dragging it out, or expecting the rest of the band to change what they are doing in order to fit in with what he wants.  It's fine to stop doing something you don't enjoy, it's not fine to expect other people to stop doing it too

A mate of mine was in a band (a reasonably well known, and certainly well paid tribute act) where the lead guitarist announced that he wouldn't play more than a couple of gigs a month and wouldn't play outside of their local area, right at the point when the band was trying to build their reputation on the back of some very positive publicity and put together mini tours.  There were some family issues behind it and they didn't want to sack him, but when they suggested that they could get a dep in, or even another permanent lead guitarist for the gigs he didn't want to do, he spat his dummy out at the thought that they might even consider playing without him.

Needless to say it ended in a sacking soon after, and a permanently damaged friendship

Thanks. That's exactly the way I've been looking at it. The band members are all good friends, so the last thing I would want to do is drag everyone else back and cause bad feeling. It's all been extremely amicable. It had just become obvious that we all wanted different things from being in a band. It's been a great experience and for the most part I've absolutely loved it. I just couldn't continue at the pace we were going. 

We played our final gig as a 6 piece on Sunday afternoon and it was great. Outdoors, walled hotel beer garden, sunshine, swimming pool, charity auction. It was a really nice afternoon and a great way to wind things down. I will actually miss it. The hardest part was explaining to the compare that this was our final gig when he came over to congratulate us on how good we sounded. He just couldn't get his head around us packing it in when we were such a "great band" (his words not mine)

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On 25/08/2019 at 19:37, oZZma said:

Maybe someone doesn't like to talk/perform/do anything in public because is and introvert and feels discomfort in this kind of situation...I don't feel I'm extrovert enough to "entartain" anyone and I know I would look like a mummy on stage.

I do find this a fascinating subject, not least because I can sympathise with your position! I consider myself introverted, but I'm very aware that I am a different person onstage. I don't necessarily dislike meeting new people, but I find it tiring - dedicated "networking" events are my idea of hell - but somehow I find I'm able to present a different personality when I have an audience waiting for me to play. (And I'm quite sure I know a few other introverted musicians who function in a similar way.)

I'm familiar with the idea that the introvert is hesitant to speak up in a group because (s)he wants to form and double-check any idea in his/her own head before voicing it, and so the conversation ends up being dominated by the surrounding extroverts. So the way I see it is that if I've gone to effort of arranging the gig, getting the band up to scratch, and getting my gear to the venue, then that set is my unequivocal opportunity to speak up (perform) and I'm bloody well going to do so!

But then, I can only speak from my own experience. I know that not everybody is capable of putting that mask on when the time comes.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, EliasMooseblaster said:

but somehow I find I'm able to present a different personality when I have an audience waiting for me to play. (And I'm quite sure I know a few other introverted musicians who function in a similar way.)

Not me. I can't imagine myself faking/acting anything. If I hate someone, it shows. If I hate a situation, it shows. If I feel out of place, it shows. I can't force myself to do all those stupid things people expect to see onstage like dancing, jumping, headbanging and all that "entertainment" crap I don't feel natural. I can't and I won't. I can't be "someone else" onstage. If I will have to gig, I will be a mummy. And I will hate everyone that looks at me. Take it or leave it :laugh1:

 

17 minutes ago, EliasMooseblaster said:

dedicated "networking" events are my idea of hell

same.

 

Edited by oZZma
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1 hour ago, EliasMooseblaster said:

I do find this a fascinating subject, not least because I can sympathise with your position! I consider myself introverted, but I'm very aware that I am a different person onstage. I don't necessarily dislike meeting new people, but I find it tiring - dedicated "networking" events are my idea of hell - but somehow I find I'm able to present a different personality when I have an audience waiting for me to play. (And I'm quite sure I know a few other introverted musicians who function in a similar way.)

I'm familiar with the idea that the introvert is hesitant to speak up in a group because (s)he wants to form and double-check any idea in his/her own head before voicing it, and so the conversation ends up being dominated by the surrounding extroverts. So the way I see it is that if I've gone to effort of arranging the gig, getting the band up to scratch, and getting my gear to the venue, then that set is my unequivocal opportunity to speak up (perform) and I'm bloody well going to do so!

But then, I can only speak from my own experience. I know that not everybody is capable of putting that mask on when the time comes.

I also find it very interesting, not least because we often perceive people to be "odd" because they are a different personality type and react to things in ways that we cannot empathise with.

I once went on a people management course for work and they had a whole afternoon of this sort of stuff, and made the point that most people are unaware of their personality type unless they are really at the extremes, and think that the other types are all rude!  But most people have some extrovert traits and some introvert traits

We did an assessment that put me right on the borderline between an introvert and extrovert personality, and the rest of the people on the course seemed surprised because they knew I played in bands and assumed that I must be an extrovert, whereas I wasn't shocked at all because I know what I'm like, and I don't enjoy meeting a room full of strangers.

However, I know that I am comfortable where I am confident in what I'm doing - I can get up and do presentations as long as I know my subject, and I can get up and play bass because I know what I'm playing.  And there's enough of an extrovert in me that I do actively enjoy playing live

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I remember reading something quite recently about how for introverts, social interaction is something that consumes energy, whereas for extroverts, it generates it. Which is why a lot of introverts view extroverts as a kind of "energy vampire" and a lot of extroverts view introverts as an "energy hoarder".

I'm definitely an introvert. Can't do things like networking events, and I like my socialising to be either brief or with people I already know very well. But I have no problem turning on the charm at gigs, because the energy that I get from performing neatly balances the energy required to keep it going.

S.P.

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18 hours ago, peteb said:

To be honest, building a career as a musician is not the easiest thing to do and is not generally particularly lucrative. Anyone would have a much easier life developing other employment skills rather than committing to being a professional musician, unless they really loved doing it.

I have a friend who has been a pro drummer all his life. He went and got his first (part time) office job in his fifties to give him a steady income alongside his drum teaching. He did this, not because he hated gigging, but so he could afford to take lower paying gigs with his mates playing music he liked, rather than his regular function band gig where he said that the highlight was always “picking up the money at the end of the night”!

Even Bruce Dickinson has two day jobs...

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32 minutes ago, Stylon Pilson said:

I remember reading something quite recently about how for introverts, social interaction is something that consumes energy, whereas for extroverts, it generates it. Which is why a lot of introverts view extroverts as a kind of "energy vampire" and a lot of extroverts view introverts as an "energy hoarder".

I'm definitely an introvert. Can't do things like networking events, and I like my socialising to be either brief or with people I already know very well. But I have no problem turning on the charm at gigs, because the energy that I get from performing neatly balances the energy required to keep it going.

S.P.

I'm just a big-mouthed attention-seeking gobshite desperate for validation :-0

At least I'm self-aware...

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