The Box PA Speakers

[BobBracker2222]

1 hour ago, paul_c2 said:

TBH the equipment you already have, together with the stuff you've just ordered, should do you good for a little while yet. Don't get buyer's remorse! Once you have it, and have a few months experience with using it and pros/cons in your particular situation, you'll have a much better idea of what you might need to upgrade/replace/expand. The stuff you have (or have ordered) isn't massively expensive so you could keep it and put it to use elsewhere, I'm sure.

I contacted Thomman today and they said it was packed and ready to go and will be dispatched tomorrow, they open at 8.30 GMT tomorrow so if I live chat them first thing, then there is still a chance they could swap it for a more appropriate set of speakers

[BobBracker2222]

 

On 26/05/2019 at 08:26, yorks5stringer said:

Jack are the ones that go into nearly  every input along the top of your mixer (apart from the 2 black ones on the top left which are XLR).  Phono are the red and white ones on the r/h side at the top. XLR are better: XLR typically gives you a 'balanced' connection, whereas the Jack connection is unbalanced. ... For a high signal level instrument, like a guitar, this is often not a problem, but for a low level signal like a microphone it could significantly degrade the sound quality, so balanced connections are used.

 

 

On 26/05/2019 at 09:58, Stub Mandrel said:

Your best using a connector that's the same at each end. For low impedance, buffered signals from mixer to active speaker what matters most if the quality of the cable, so buy low noise ones that won't clack every time you stand on one..

While we are on the subject of balanced and unbalanced cables.
I was playing around with my realistic mixer yesterday as it would make a good spear if my main mixer brakes down on a job

(in blue) In the photo you can see I am using an SM58 mic with a 3 pin XLR plug on the back of the mic that connects to the cable by an XLR port

(in red) You can also see on the other end of the cable its a 1/4" jack that connects to the 3X microphone sockets on the mixer. However when I connect the 1/4" jack there is a lot of interference and a humming noise and if I tape the cable wire to the mic I get a crackling sound

(in yellow) Not sure what is going on hear, but I have a sneaky suspicion that if I ground the "GND" plugs on the back of the mixer then it may solve it. What do you think?

Edited May 27, 2019 by BobBracker2222

[BobBracker2222]

35 minutes ago, BobBracker2222 said:

I contacted Thomman today and they said it was packed and ready to go and will be dispatched tomorrow, they open at 8.30 GMT tomorrow so if I live chat them first thing, then there is still a chance they could swap it for a more appropriate set of speakers

I had another look on there web site for the same brand and modal "the box PA DSA"

This is the 12" cone I bought
https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pa_12_dsp.htm
Power: 800 Watt (peak)
Maximum SPL: 128 dB

This is the 10" version
https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pa_10_dsp.htm
Power: 800 W Peak
Maximum level: 126 dB
2dB less then the 12"

And no exactly the same modal (not a DSA) but the 8" cone
https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pa108a_aktive_fullrangebox.htm
Power: 80W Bass/ 50 W Treble
SPL: Max. 116 dB
Big drop in volume!

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, BobBracker2222 said:

Are you saying I should of gone for an 8" or a 10"?

No I'm saying the size of the bass driver doesn't matter for vocals. A 10 wouldn't necessarily be better or worse. If weight and size were an issue you could have gone smaller with no problems. 

The RCF would have better everything in all probability but it would be the better tweeter and crossover that would make the difference in the vocals. Better components just cost more but the Box stuff represents excellent value.

I agree with Paul, don't have buyers remorse, the likelihood is that you will be happy with the choice so go on and concentrate on the important thing, making music.

[yorks5stringer]

47 minutes ago, BobBracker2222 said:

 

 

While we are on the subject of balanced and unbalanced cables.
I was playing around with my realistic mixer yesterday as it would make a good spear if my main mixer brakes down on a job

(in blue) In the photo you can see I am using an SM58 mic with a 3 pin XLR plug on the back of the mic that connects to the cable by an XLR port

(in red) You can also see on the other end of the cable its a 1/4" jack that connects to the 3X microphone sockets on the mixer. However when I connect the 1/4" jack there is a lot of interference and a humming noise and if I tape the cable wire to the mic I get a crackling sound

(in yellow) Not sure what is going on hear, but I have a sneaky suspicion that if I ground the "GND" plugs on the back of the mixer then it may solve it. What do you think?

Don't use that mixer then if there are earth issues and don't ever tape cables together anyway.

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, BobBracker2222 said:

 

 

While we are on the subject of balanced and unbalanced cables.
I was playing around with my realistic mixer yesterday as it would make a good spear if my main mixer brakes down on a job

(in blue) In the photo you can see I am using an SM58 mic with a 3 pin XLR plug on the back of the mic that connects to the cable by an XLR port

(in red) You can also see on the other end of the cable its a 1/4" jack that connects to the 3X microphone sockets on the mixer. However when I connect the 1/4" jack there is a lot of interference and a humming noise and if I tape the cable wire to the mic I get a crackling sound

(in yellow) Not sure what is going on hear, but I have a sneaky suspicion that if I ground the "GND" plugs on the back of the mixer then it may solve it. What do you think?

Those ground terminals are for building it into a permanant installation when you want to avoid earth loops and have everything grounded from the same point. It shoudl be grounded through the plug.

If you get crackles from moving the XLR plug in its socket and humming when the mike is plugged in this suggests the XLR plug is worn OR there may be a wiring fault in the lead.

 

[BobBracker2222]

33 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

No I'm saying the size of the bass driver doesn't matter for vocals. A 10 wouldn't necessarily be better or worse. If weight and size were an issue you could have gone smaller with no problems. 

The RCF would have better everything in all probability but it would be the better tweeter and crossover that would make the difference in the vocals. Better components just cost more but the Box stuff represents excellent value.

I agree with Paul, don't have buyers remorse, the likelihood is that you will be happy with the choice so go on and concentrate on the important thing, making music.

Im just saying that I have the opportunity now to change the 12" to the 10" if I would get better vocal sound from it. So if you think I would then I can change it first thing tomorrow morning as they have not dispatched it yet

[BobBracker2222]

3 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Those ground terminals are for building it into a permanant installation when you want to avoid earth loops and have everything grounded from the same point. It shoudl be grounded through the plug.

If you get crackles from moving the XLR plug in its socket and humming when the mike is plugged in this suggests the XLR plug is worn OR there may be a wiring fault in the lead.

 

The wire is brand new and a good quality one (the yellow stagg we talked about before)
When you say the plug do you mean the 3 pin 240 volt mains?

[Stub Mandrel]

Yes the mains plug should be providing your earth. I'd be surprised (horrified) if something metal cased like that was unearthed.

Can you describe exactly what causes the crackle, is it jiggling the connector in its socket (plug or socket likely to be worn or dirty) or jiggling the cable where it goes into the connector (damaged conductor in cable).

Does the hum depend on where the microphone is held? Does it get worse when near a mains powered object? does it get better or worse if you touch the microphone windshield?

If the cable is not mating properly with the connector in the microphone or has a broken conductor that could explain both crackles and intermittent hum.

The last rehearsal we had two out of three cables crackled really badly when plugged into a mike, one was even cutting out completely. A third cable was fine. They all looked pretty new.

 

[Phil Starr]

55 minutes ago, BobBracker2222 said:

Im just saying that I have the opportunity now to change the 12" to the 10" if I would get better vocal sound from it. So if you think I would then I can change it first thing tomorrow morning as they have not dispatched it yet

sorry we seem to be at cross purposes here. I haven't heard these speakers and I think that's clear from all my answers.

These are cheap speakers and they will have limitations. So long as you have read everything and think the risk is worth it (with Thomanns returns policy ) then go ahead. I don't think they will be awful and if they are all you can afford then It's a complete no brainer. Thomann are a good brand and a three year guarantee makes it very low risk.

If you can afford a little more I've suggested a speaker I know is very good, in fact from the market leader in quality and which I've tried. The RCF ART310 mk 3

You seem to have the impression the size of the bass driver is important, I've tried to explain why it isn't for vocals. If it isn't then there is no reason to change the size of the speaker within the same brand. Going for the Box 10 almost certainly won't improve the sound and as you've observed the 8 is much quieter. You made up your mind when you ordered the speaker, just relax and enjoy it when it comes. I hope you love it and wonder why we made such a fuss. On the outside chance you don't you have the guarantee you can return it and get a refund or swap it for something better if you decide the extra is worth paying for.

[BobBracker2222]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Yes the mains plug should be providing your earth. I'd be surprised (horrified) if something metal cased like that was unearthed.

Can you describe exactly what causes the crackle, is it jiggling the connector in its socket (plug or socket likely to be worn or dirty) or jiggling the cable where it goes into the connector (damaged conductor in cable).

Does the hum depend on where the microphone is held? Does it get worse when near a mains powered object? does it get better or worse if you touch the microphone windshield?

If the cable is not mating properly with the connector in the microphone or has a broken conductor that could explain both crackles and intermittent hum.

The last rehearsal we had two out of three cables crackled really badly when plugged into a mike, one was even cutting out completely. A third cable was fine. They all looked pretty new.

 

Better still I have attached a recording

Wonder what those screws with the GND are supposed to do then

upload tobass forum.m4a

[BobBracker2222]

57 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

You seem to have the impression the size of the bass driver is important, I've tried to explain why it isn't for vocals. If it isn't then there is no reason to change the size of the speaker within the same brand. Going for the Box 10 almost certainly won't improve the sound and as you've observed the 8 is much quieter.

obviously we can't hear the difference between the 12 and  the 10 so an educated guess is what has to be made. But this is solo for the purpose of vocals only though. But we know a 12" is better then a 15" for vocals though

No the size of the bass driver has no interest to me as I don't even know what it means!

[yorks5stringer]

46 minutes ago, BobBracker2222 said:

Better still I have attached a recording

Wonder what those screws with the GND are supposed to do then

upload tobass forum.m4a 2.83 MB · 1 download

Those ground terminals are for building it into a permanant installation when you want to avoid earth loops and have everything grounded from the same point. It shoudl be grounded through the plug.

[Newfoundfreedom]

To be fair you can't go wrong with pretty much anything from Thomann. Their customer service and returns policy is superb. I looked at "The Box" gear but for a few quid extra you can get the Beringer's. I got 2x15's and they're ridiculously good for the money. I previously had Peavey 15's and the Beringer's wee wee all over them. 

As for not using 15's for vocals, I've never heard that before in my life. We run all our vocals though 15 and it sounds great. In fact just about every pub / club band I've ever seen uses 15" PA speakers. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Newfoundfreedom

[Stub Mandrel]

9 hours ago, BobBracker2222 said:

Better still I have attached a recording

That's a bad contact at the connector/wire you are wiggling.

[BassBunny]

10 hours ago, BobBracker2222 said:

obviously we can't hear the difference between the 12 and  the 10 so an educated guess is what has to be made. But this is solo for the purpose of vocals only though. But we know a 12" is better then a 15" for vocals though

No the size of the bass driver has no interest to me as I don't even know what it means!

It's not vocals only though is it. You say you are a solo singer with backing tracks so you need to consider how the BT's sound as well and you have been given some good advice on this thread and might find that the best compromise in your situation is exactly what you have ordered and if not you can return them.

[Phil Starr]

15 hours ago, BobBracker2222 said:

 But we know a 12" is better then a 15" for vocals though

No the size of the bass driver has no interest to me as I don't even know what it means!

You don't know that. Someone said it to you, but they were wrong. That's what I've ben trying to tell you. Oh well it doesn't really matter.

In a 12" cab the bass driver is 12" in a 15" the bass driver is 15"

[BreadBin]

The ground connectors are for record decks.

[BobBracker2222]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

You don't know that. Someone said it to you, but they were wrong. That's what I've ben trying to tell you. Oh well it doesn't really matter.

In a 12" cab the bass driver is 12" in a 15" the bass driver is 15"

It was several members on a sound engineering forum that said don't go for 15s go for 8 or 10s as one person said, the others said 10 and 12 but 15s are for base disco/ DJ stuff
But I am no longer a member of that forum and no longer post there, dear I post a link!?

So what you lot are saying is that 15 are best for vocals?

[Phil Starr]

7 minutes ago, BobBracker2222 said:

So what you lot are saying is that 15 are best for vocals?

No, I'm saying that the size doesn't matter. 

[Newfoundfreedom]

4 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

No, I'm saying that the size doesn't matter. 

Can you have a word with my wife. 

[Stub Mandrel]

34 minutes ago, BobBracker2222 said:

It was several members on a sound engineering forum that said don't go for 15s go for 8 or 10s as one person said, the others said 10 and 12 but 15s are for base disco/ DJ stuff
But I am no longer a member of that forum and no longer post there, dear I post a link!?

So what you lot are saying is that 15 are best for vocals?

 

What matters is the frequency response of the speaker as a whole. All a bigger woofer does is make it easier to design a speaker that can deliver power at lower frequencies, but its far from the whole story.

You seriously need to stop worrying.

If you rely on internet rumour rather than your own ears, instead of enjoying the new gear you will end up looking for ways to check it and measure (or worse predict on the basis of other's comments) its performance, which leads to convincing yourself that it has minor issues and has to be upgraded when in reality it  probably does the job perfectly well.

In am distressingly familiar with this story in the context of people who buy kit and get frustrated chasing test numbers rather than comparing the results they get against the results they need. They usually end up frustrated and out of pocket, plus they leave a trail of frustrated retailers who have perfectly good kit returned as sub-standard, that they then have to discount as b-stock.

 

[BobBracker2222]

I got the speakers today and have been reading the manual and setting them up
But I am unsure of a few things

I got the speakers with a pair of stands, the stands can raise the speakers up off from the ground 6 feet but they are very wobbly and unbalanced at the height. How high should they be off the ground?

Also there are 2 audio inputs, but bough are 1/4" jack/phone plugs, so I don see the point to that

There is a volume control for each input and on that there is a line level marker, dose anyone know what that means please?

Now when you switch the speakers on there is a LED display screen which comes on, next to the screen there is a pre amps knob, the level is set to 00dB and goes down or up from that. Is it a good rule of thumb to have it set to zero?

Also there is a menu knob and on the menu are the following

Mode: DJ, Music, Live, Speech
As I am singing to mp3 backing track should it be set to music or live?

Location: normal, monitor

High EQ:
Mid EQ:
LowEQ:
My mixer is all ready det to maximum high EQ and minimum low EQ and this was tested though a recorder and using a pair of head phones as monitors through the mixer desk, will it need adjusting again through the speakers?

Sub: High pass filter, off, 80hz, 100hz, 120hz150hz
What dose this do?

Delay: off, 0ms to 16ms delays time selection
My mixer already has this built in, is there any point using it?

LCD DIM
Bright
Contrast
Reset
Info
Exit

[Phil Starr]

For use at home you don't need to raise the speakers so put them on the floor or just at minimum height. At a gig you need to make sure that where possible you raise the horn at least above the heads of the audience or the people at the front will absorb the higher frequencies. Cheap stands and speakers wobble, so do a few expensive ones.

You have two mixable inputs so that people who want to can mix a guitar and their vocals without having to take a separate mixer.

 The modes are just a range of pre set tone control settings, try them all and sdecide which sounds best. Probably 'live' for live work.

Start off with your tone controls all set to flat, no boost or cut, then adjust them a little at a time if you need to. No boost of cut will give you the most natural sound probably.

The high pass filter cuts out bass more sharply than the tone controls. 80Hz is useful for vocals as it cuts out a lot of handling and noise from the vocal mic but it will reduce the bass from your backing tracks as well. The other frequencies are so you can use the speakers with a bass bin/sub woofer. As you don't have one switch the filter to off.

The time delay is for people using lot's of speakers in a large space, turn it off.

[BobBracker2222]

4 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

 At a gig you need to make sure that where possible you raise the horn at least above the heads of the audience or the people at the front will absorb the higher frequencies

What is this horn?
On the speakers there would appear to be 2 cones, one behind the metal mesh and one very small one on top of that, is that top one what they call a horn?

 

4 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

 Cheap stands and speakers wobble, so do a few expensive ones.

Do you think I need sand bags?

 

4 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Start off with your tone controls all set to flat, no boost or cut, then adjust them a little at a time if you need to. No boost of cut will give you the most natural sound probably.

I don't understand, what is this boost and cut

 

There is an out port of the speakers with an XLR port. I am just wondering if I plug that in if it will cut out all sound that would normally go though the speaker

Would be nice to test record them in my flat first (with no sound going though the speaker) before I book into a rehearsal room for half a day to do a full test