Phil Starr Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 On 16/07/2019 at 22:58, Al Krow said: For the sake of balance (and to remove the image that krispn has kindly put in our collective heads), what are the key advantages of 3-way systems? There's an Goldilocks size for each frequency. Too big and the high frequencies are lost due to the mass of the driver and the dispersion issues, too small and you simply can't move the air with any sensible level of efficiency. You also only get undistorted sound when the speaker cone or dome moves as a piston. In practice most speakers only really work well over 3 octaves. There are loads of tricks to extend the range of speakers beyond this and it isn't a switch thing. Just as the porridge can be a little bit too hot or cold but still be edible In terms of getting the best out of the drivers a 4-way system looks appealing. The problem is that crossovers produce their own distortions and it's really hard to stitch two speaker outputs together, a midrange is especially difficult because it has to match both the bass driver and the tweeter and also sound good over it's own special bit of the spectrum. The designer has to balance the increased cost of extra drivers and more complexity in the crossover along with increasing technical issues against the simplicity and reduced crossover problems of a 2-way. In the end there isn't a better or best, just alternatives. You've also to remember that this is for bass. For PA you are probably looking for vocals to be the thing you want to sound best and the crucial frequencies for vocals are in the mids. A 2-way will have the crossover inevitably just where you want it least. That is less of an issue for bass which has a different frequency profile. In fact a cab with bass and mid driver but no top would make some sense. Is FRFR the way to go for bass or do we want a cab with a bit of character? Rhetorical question really, that comes down to taste. The reality is that whilst speaker design hasn't moved on much since the 1920's other than Thiele and Small coming up with a mathematical model in the 1970's the materials we use has come on in leaps and bounds and technically we have been able to integrate 2 way designs with far better drivers. Why carry three when two will do? DSP also allows you to remove a lot of the distortions from the crossover too in active designs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 Managed to get the Fearless F112 road tested at Wembley Box Park last night. Worked an absolute treat. Really good dispersion - I stood and played at both ends of the stage either side of the drums and no difficulty in hearing the bass. The cab has a real clarity and punch. My BF SC is an excellent cab, but I sometimes struggle to hear my PJ bass clearly when I have ear plugs in (something I've previously mentioned) perhaps reflecting its reputation for being slightly weaker in the mids? No such issue with Fearless which is 'famous' for both its low end and its mid punch and which you might expect with a dedicated 5" speaker focusing on the mids; I could hear every note played clearly (mistakes and all - there's much less scope for hiding with this cab, be warned!) even with ear plugs in. Managed to get some clips of the gig last night and will happily share when I've uploaded. The Fearless will be my default cab for function work going forward. The BF with its blissful 21 lbs weight isn't going anywhere fast though! Overall, as you can tell, I'm delighted with the F112 and would have no hesitation in recommending it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 @Al Krow Good on you for getting it out into the wild. I’d be up for some clips when you have them. These cabs always intrigued me anything with a dedicated mid driver seems like a useful addition regardless of the low end handling! Do you think the scooped nature of the pj was having an impact on hearing the mids with the bareface? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 1 hour ago, krispn said: @Al Krow Good on you for getting it out into the wild. I’d be up for some clips when you have them. These cabs always intrigued me anything with a dedicated mid driver seems like a useful addition regardless of the low end handling! Do you think the scooped nature of the pj was having an impact on hearing the mids with the bareface? Cheers buddy. I remember you also asked for a clip of my band playing 'Kiss' a while back, as there is no 'bass-line' on the original, so I might just be able to kill two birds with one clip for you here! I certainly agree that both J pups engaged on my Ibby gives a sweeter tone, which ties in with being mid-scooped. Interesting that you say that the PJ setting on my Yammy BB is scooped; that's therefore possibly also true, but I hadn't really thought about it in those terms as it certainly cuts through better than on a solo'd P setting. But as you have a Yammy BB yourself I'm sure you will be correct in making that assertion. But frankly all settings i.e. P, PJ or J on my Yammy BB are harder to hear clearly with earplugs in on my BF SC as compared to the Fearless. It was actually a bit of a revelation and frankly a delight (for me anyway!) to be able to hear my bass line so clearly with ear plugs in for the first time in a full band mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 I’m possibly wrong but on a two pick up bass with both pick ups on you’ll get that mid scoop be they a JJ, PJ or even two MM style pick ups. That’s been my experience over the years. I’m sure there’s some ‘science’ behind it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 Looking forward to the clips. Have you been go pro’ing gigs? Our singer has just bought one and we have a few track done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 32 minutes ago, krispn said: Looking forward to the clips. Have you been go pro’ing gigs? Our singer has just bought one and we have a few track done Just getting a couple of clips sorted - will send to singer to get her 'sign off' before making public Drummer has a cheap version of Go Pro and low light and sound quality are a bit pants. Apparently there may be a new model Hero 8 coming out shortly and I'll have a look into whether it might be worth getting one. I was using a good old fashioned video cam and Rode Stereo mic last night - just set and record (unmanned). Came out reasonably well without sound distortion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 How was the box park gig? I recall you saying it was a ‘big space’! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted August 18, 2019 Author Share Posted August 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, krispn said: How was the box park gig? I recall you saying it was a ‘big space’! It's a good venue. Definitely less daunting second time around! But we're pretty much a background side attraction a bit like a pianist at a restaurant, where the main focus is the meal and at BoxPark it's the shopping / eating. The bands (my understanding is that this is a brand new venture for them) are basically there to make BoxPark more of a retail 'destination'. Exactly what is needed if the 'High Street' is going to stay relevant...but that's a whole 'nother topic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 1 hour ago, krispn said: I’m possibly wrong but on a two pick up bass with both pick ups on you’ll get that mid scoop be they a JJ, PJ or even two MM style pick ups. That’s been my experience over the years. I’m sure there’s some ‘science’ behind it! That's my experience too, but to what extent and where in the spectrum exactly is the 'scoop' varies with pickups and *relative pickup heights*. I rarely like a bridge J on its own, unless it's one of the 'meatier' types, and even then I'm generally not convinced as it sounds far thinner than any other position, which is why I favour a humbucker in series at the bridge. Anyway, on a Jazz or PJ, I tend to set the neck pickup first, and then adjust the bridge pickup so that when both are blended I like the sound. By bringing the bridge pickup a bit closer or farther from the strings you can affect a lot the mid-scoop character. The effect is more pronounced on some basses than others, but you can almost always find a "too hollow" setting where the bass just gets lost in the mix, and then start bringing it closer to the strings to get the mids back. So, if you don't care much for the bridge pickup alone you could try that. It's not that the bridge becomes unusable, not at all, in fact it often sounds pretty good alone, but I just don't try to ensure it balances volume-wise with the neck one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 Solid advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted August 20, 2019 Author Share Posted August 20, 2019 (edited) On 18/08/2019 at 12:06, krispn said: Looking forward to the clips... Here you go - Fearless F112 in action (headphones recommended) @lee650 - here you go: a Yammy BB1025 in action Edited September 14, 2019 by Al Krow 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Cheers fella Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 its saying video unavailable - might not be fully uploaded yet? Have you just posted it this morning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted August 20, 2019 Author Share Posted August 20, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, krispn said: its saying video unavailable - might not be fully uploaded yet? Have you just posted it this morning? Now fixed. Edited August 20, 2019 by Al Krow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrixn1 Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 This link seems to work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxMfgK_6tG4 Bass sounds good but the guitarist is standing in the way most of the time blocking my view of that nice bass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Al Krow said: Here you go - Fearless F112 in action https://youtu.be/vxmfgk_6tg4 (headphones recommended) Video cameras don't normally tell you much, but the mids are really crisp here. Note definition is good. The midrange driver's really showing its worth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 The cab sounds good! Nice and clear! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) On 20/08/2019 at 13:02, Al Krow said: Here you go - Fearless F112 in action (headphones recommended) Oooh - Kiss! Ha! I managed to convince my band to play this, and it was always a crowd-pleaser. We came up with a different vibe to you. So as not to derail this thread about 112 cabs, I'll post a YouTube link in the Recording forum. Edited August 22, 2019 by solo4652 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 Now I can finally ad something to this thread. I’m now the new owner of @Al Krow’s Fearless F112. Very grateful to him for helping me out getting one so quick;y. 3 month wait? Nah. 4 days? That I could just manage lol. It was either this or another BB2, and after the things Ive said about the BB2 I used to own we both knew it was the wrong move. I needed a one hand life cab, that could of handle Social clubs and pubs without PA support, and of course sounds good. My TCE RS212 ticks some boxes but not enough, and as its a two hand life I found i was t taking it to rehearsals, which wasn’t a good idea. This new cab will go everywhere with me. Not the lightest, but light enough to carry with one hand. Cant wait for the next rehearsal, and more so the up coming gigs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 On 18/08/2019 at 07:03, krispn said: I’m possibly wrong but on a two pick up bass with both pick ups on you’ll get that mid scoop be they a JJ, PJ or even two MM style pick ups. That’s been my experience over the years. I’m sure there’s some ‘science’ behind it! It's a phase sourced cancellation caused by the distance between the pickups. The same thing happens with one pickup when it's a humbucker, but at much higher frequencies, as the distance between the coils is so short. That's why a Les Paul or any humbucker equipped guitar doesn't have the highs of a Strat or other single coil pickup guitar. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted September 30, 2019 Author Share Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) @dave_bass5 you're very welcome mate, it's always a pleasure to help a fellow BC buddy out; besides I got a free diagnostic of my Stomp when you popped over, which is now speaking to my PC again! The Fearless F112 is the best 112 cab I've ever had the pleasure of playing through. Frankly it holds its own not just against other 112s, but 210s as well. It has a clarity, articulation and punch to rival even a Berg CN212, which for me is high praise indeed! (Although as an 8ohm 112 it won't be as loud as a quality 4 ohm 212). And unless you decide to return this one (and I have first dibs if you do), I'm sure this won't be the only Fearless F112 I end up owning! Edited September 30, 2019 by Al Krow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 Why did you sell it @Al Krow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted September 30, 2019 Author Share Posted September 30, 2019 7 minutes ago, krispn said: Why did you sell it @Al Krow? Cos a bass buddy had an immediate need for it, and I'm fine with the couple of cabs I still have. You know me well enough to know that it can be a while before I put my bass gear to best use, although I aim to get there in the end So I don't mind waiting a few months for a replacement, either used or new. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krispn Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 Did you find the cab too articulate or just happy to use the other stuff in the meantime? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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