Paul McCartney: Overrated or What?

[drTStingray]

21 minutes ago, EssentialTension said:

Benny Bendorff

Great stuff - and great to see he quotes his main influences as Jet Harris (The Shadows) and none other than Paul McCartney -  definitely well crafted but as with much of the similarly well crafted output of the Wrecking Crew, no self respecting rock, R and B or jazz funk fan of the 70s would give it living room space!!

Now McCartney even then had crossed lots of genres gaining national treasure status (quite rightly - and his bass parts were pretty nice as well). 👍

Edited March 17, 2019 by drTStingray

[LeftyP]

OK, I like the Beatles - especially their early albums up to Revolver and Rubber Soul (forget Sgt.Pepper).  My first name is Paul, I'm left handed and I have a cheap version of the Hofner violin bass in my collection!  Paul Mc. was and is one of the best bass players for popular music.  As has already been said, he played to the song and, unless you are a bass player and listen out for his lines, his playing can go unnoticed.  To me,  that is the whole point of bass playing even in driving dance tracks.  Most punters don't realise that it is the bass that makes dance tracks so good.  I suspect that to many Beatles fans the songs are the main 'thing' and the instrumentation is secondary.

I have watched many videos of "great" bass players and could never play like them with sparks flying off my fingers.  However, I do not enjoy their music as, rather than being part of the song,  their playing becomes a self important "Hey, look at me" performance that adds nothing to the event.  Players like Joe Osborne on the Carpenters and 5th Dimension tracks knew when and how to use the bass.  Paul Mc. was/is a master at finding just the right balance without detracting from the song.

[Guest oZZma]

On 16/03/2019 at 10:51, Fionn said:

 I can’t hear any innovation or great imagination in what he did,  nothing special at all. 

Am I spectacularly missing something here? 

You're missing that it's >50 years old music we're talking about, and SO popular it's been totally digested by now. Don't expect to find it super exciting today. 

14 minutes ago, LeftyP said:

OK, I like the Beatles - especially their early albums up to Revolver and Rubber Soul (forget Sgt.Pepper).  

Funny. I find them boring before Revolver. One of the very few bands whose latter records overshadow the early ones IMO.

 

[Bluewine]

13 hours ago, EssentialTension said:

 

Jet Harris shows us the first Fender Precision Bass in the UK I believe ...

 

Was this before Paul and his Hofner bass.

I've never heard of Jet.

Blue

[Bluewine]

The thing with Paul is, no other bass guitarist will go down in history as being one of the most prolific song writers ever.

Blue

[Hobbayne]

3 minutes ago, Bluewine said:

Was this before Paul and his Hofner bass.

I've never heard of Jet.

Blue

Yes. The Shadows were one of the biggest bands in the UK before The Beatles stole their crown.

Here is Jet with That Fender Precision Bass

 

[Bluewine]

2 minutes ago, Hobbayne said:

Yes. The Shadows were one of the biggest bands in the UK before The Beatles stole their crown.

Here is Jet with That Fender Precision Bass

 

Understood, I'll tell you, that Hofner Violin Bass was certainly and "eye catcher" for us kids in the States.

Blue

[drTStingray]

14 hours ago, EssentialTension said:

 

Jet Harris shows us the first Fender Precision Bass in the UK I believe ...

 

Great picture.

Jet had another Precision (sunburst) for a while before that (as seen on the first album cover, along with casual jumpers...) - bought after his Framus was damaged in a dressing room. The Strat is not the first one in the Uk (as used by Hank originally but that has a maple board - an early commentator on the importance of neck wood to tone - Hank preferred the mellow quality of a rosewood board). The FR Precision featured with Jet's replacement, Brian Locking also - presumably owned by the band or management until they went all white instruments - amazingly, considering everyone associates Cliff Richard and the Shadows with it the all FR look only lasted about 2 yrs - Mo Foster's book refers to Hank Marvin's original Strat suffering from rattly strings at the nut/headstock - and he used to pack it with paper to try and stop it!! 

The Shadows were a relatively rare famous user of the Fender Precision in those 60s days in the UK.

Edited March 17, 2019 by drTStingray

[Grangur]

8 hours ago, drTStingray said:

Great picture.

Jet had another Precision (sunburst) for a while before that (as seen on the first album cover, along with casual jumpers...) - bought after his Framus was damaged in a dressing room. The Strat is not the first one in the Uk (as used by Hank originally but that has a maple board - an early commentator on the importance of neck wood to tone - Hank preferred the mellow quality of a rosewood board). The FR Precision featured with Jet's replacement, Brian Locking also - presumably owned by the band or management until they went all white instruments - amazingly, considering everyone associates Cliff Richard and the Shadows with it the all FR look only lasted about 2 yrs - Mo Foster's book refers to Hank Marvin's original Strat suffering from rattly strings at the nut/headstock - and he used to pack it with paper to try and stop it!! 

The Shadows were a relatively rare famous user of the Fender Precision in those 60s days in the UK.

The bass in the video is a sunburst. Look at the cigarette scene at the end. There's dark around the edge of the bass. It also looks well worn. So did he ever play the flat coloured one in the still pic, or was that a studio prop?

[Barking Spiders]

15 hours ago, thebigyin said:

True but this been a Bass Forum i'm pretty sure it would be about his Bass playing but I could be wrong....I don't doubt his talent as a musician I just don't like him or the Beatles, I think there are far better Bassists around but I am very biased 

Yes, but PM wrote his lines while I'm guessing the others, mostly sessioners, played what the composers wanted.  I agree there are players with better command of advanced techniques but I've seen a lot of bass virtuosity and generally I'm left thinking, 'so what'. I'm generally not interested in bass players but in bass lines so that's where I'm coming from

[thebrig]

24 minutes ago, Grangur said:

The bass in the video is a sunburst. Look at the cigarette scene at the end. There's dark around the edge of the bass. It also looks well worn. So did he ever play the flat coloured one in the still pic, or was that a studio prop?

I think his P bass in the video was fiesta red

[Stub Mandrel]

2 minutes ago, thebrig said:

I think his P bass in the video was fiesta red

It's definitely a 'burst look around 1:33.

Cool as ****

[thebrig]

3 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It's definitely a 'burst look around 1:33.

Cool as ****

Sorry, I meant to say the one in the photo 🤔

[thebrig]

Here's his original sunburst

I wonder how much this would be worth now?

Edited March 18, 2019 by thebrig

[Japhet]

I know his music and have heard loads of it but it doesn't really interest me. Other people rave about it but it doesn't float my boat. He's been a prolific writer and is often hailed as a genius but I don't get it or understand what the fuss is about. He must be overrated.

I'm not talking about Paul McCartney. I'm talking about Mozart.

[oldslapper]

Warning: Football reference alert!!!

When J Cruyff did his now famous “turn” at the 1974 World Cup and made an eejit of the Swedish defender, he was hailed as an innovator and genius. 

Now it’s rather passé and even goalkeepers do it, and the “so what generation” is created. 

Historical context is important in this and PM’s case. 

Listening to music and judging it to be “good or not” “better or worse than” must be exhausting. It’s just music and I’m sure Macca is following this thread with great interest 🤪

[Daz39]

On ‎17‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 07:08, Bluewine said:

And we respect Paul because he didn't have 50 years of Rock & Roll bass playing and hundreds of bass players to look back on and draw from.

Paul was pioneer.

Blue

Exactly right. He is to modern bass playing what other groundbreaking types were to their fields/ It's terribly passe and of the moment to look down on people like Macca, or early sci-fi writers (Mary Shelley, anyone?), or pioneering scientists - but they had no back catalogue of research, similar ideas or general awareness of form to work with: they were there at the start.

For the record: I do not like The Beatles, but there were some nice basslines, usually with a nice bouncy tone: and you've got to respect someone who played, sang, wrote and created some of the most lasting tunes of the last (crikey) almost 60 years. He might be a scouser and have questionable taste in instruments, but he's a legend. 

[Grangur]

36 minutes ago, thebrig said:

I think his P bass in the video  picture was fiesta red

Me too. It would coordinate with Hank Marvin's guitar and the band's image.

[drTStingray]

3 hours ago, Grangur said:

The bass in the video is a sunburst. Look at the cigarette scene at the end. There's dark around the edge of the bass. It also looks well worn. So did he ever play the flat coloured one in the still pic, or was that a studio prop?

The popular information (all approximate, gleaned from people far more knowledgable on these things than me):-

Besson/Framus - till late 1959

Sunburst Precision - late 1959 to early 1961

Fiesta Red Precision (with JH initials stuck on the body) - circa March 1961 to circa May 1963 (Jet Harris and then Brian Locking)

May 1963 to late 1963 - White Precision (Brian Locking and then John Rostill).

From 1964 - White Burns (John Rostill). 

The three matching rosewood board FR and white instruments were part of endorsement deals along with amps etc. NB the original FR Strat imported by Cliff Richard for Hank Marvin, which appeared in mid 1959 was replaced by a rosewood board one from 1961 and given back to Cliff - who had it resprayed white - apparently had cosmetic damage to the paint.  The basses appeared with the bassists in the feature films (such as Summer Holiday) and promotion for single releases etc (eg white instruments for the single Atlantis) as well as in live performances and the many TV appearances. 

Edited March 18, 2019 by drTStingray

[Barking Spiders]

2 hours ago, Daz39 said:

Exactly right. He is to modern bass playing what other groundbreaking types were to their fields/ It's terribly passe and of the moment to look down on people like Macca, or early sci-fi writers (Mary Shelley, anyone?), or pioneering scientists - but they had no back catalogue of research, similar ideas or general awareness of form to work with: they were there at the start.

For the record: I do not like The Beatles, but there were some nice basslines, usually with a nice bouncy tone: and you've got to respect someone who played, sang, wrote and created some of the most lasting tunes of the last (crikey) almost 60 years. He might be a scouser and have questionable taste in instruments, but he's a legend. 

Passe and indeed not very intelligent. But you're right, I hear a lot of younger people sneering at pioneering technology, film, music etc from the past or comparing with some current equivalent. The other day we were watching summat with Ray Harryhausen effects and my 14 year old daughter was being quite sneery about it so I reminded her it was done around 50 years ago using stop motion techniques, long before 3D CGI became the norm.

[mikel]

Some on here say he was not a "Technical" bassist. Who cares? I take inventive and musical over technical every time. There are loads of technical bedroom hero's on youtube who dont have an original line in them. Thats why we will never hear of them again. 

[Barking Spiders]

1 hour ago, mikel said:

Some on here say he was not a "Technical" bassist. Who cares? I take inventive and musical over technical every time. There are loads of technical bedroom hero's on youtube who dont have an original line in them. Thats why we will never hear of them again. 

And a-bluddy-men to that. Seems to me hyper technique is the holy grail for these bedroom bass thrappers never mind knowing how to put together memorable tunes. The opening bass notes of Ball of Confusion has more impact than 10 minutes of 180bpm cross- handed slap tap-athons from some berk on his £5k Pedulla. They need reminding of the fact other than other similarly minded plankspankers, no one else cares!

Edited March 18, 2019 by Barking Spiders

[Leonard Smalls]

I've never been overly impressed by anything he's done; never really liked the Beatles, and definitely didn't like Wings! He didn't play bass the way I liked it - which is mainly about the rhythm rather than being mainly about a melodic underpinning.

However, enough bass players who I do like cite him as an influence and seminal to their playing - which is good enough for me! So while he certainly isn't a direct influence on me he is indirectly...

[Stub Mandrel]

Just for those saying Jaco couldn't be melodic, off Heavy Weather:

 

[Iacopo San]

Are we actually discussing the possibility of McCartney being overrated? I can understand Beatles may not be your cup of tea, but really? 

For me he is one of the best bass player ever existed. Immensely creating, bass lines that could stand alone and be appreciated as a whole song, but still perfectly fitting and functional in each song. For me he was simply perfection.