Jump to content
Why become a member? ×

Gain and Volume


Guest MoJo

Recommended Posts

As there is no peak indicator on the input of my Fender Rumble 500v3, setting it up at a gig is all done by ear. I usually start by setting the ‘Gain’ at about two-thirds then bring up the ‘Master’ to suit the volume of the drums. For a bass with a hot output, like my BB425, I may have to back the Gain off a bit. 

A guitarist friend of mine, sets his Master on full and then sets his volume using the Gain control, the opposite way to me. He does this to ensure he gets a nice clean tone. 

Does anyone else here set their Master on full and attenuate using the Gain control?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do it the way you describe. My amp has a valve preamp stage so I set the gain on that to get the amount of “grit” I want and then use the master volume to control how much noise I make. The only time I might do it differently is if I had a valve power amp and wanted to drive the output stage.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Definately input gain first, find the clip point and then back off till no clip. Then adjust main volume for what is required.

Adjusting the EQ could  ( depending on what you adjust ), push the input gain to trigger the clip  again, so in that case, just keep backing off the input gain to pre-clip, ( with the EQ set the way you like ) and adjust main volume again

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As above ^^^^

But I must confess, I'd be buggered without my peak indicator to set it up as above.

Or rather, I would be buggered if I didn't always use the amp's limiter - which has a different colour light that flashes about a million db before the peak light would.

 

4 hours ago, MoJo said:

Does anyone else here set their Master on full and attenuate using the Gain control?

No, that can't be right. I suppose there's half an excuse for doing it that way if he's always struggling to be loud enough compared to the rest of the band, but just to get a clean tone? Nahhh... if he has plenty of amp power, his signal to noise ratio must be -- Pants.

Edited by Ricky 4000
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Setting the master on full and controlling your volume from the gain pot is the easiest way to bypass a master volume circuit in a tube guitar amp. In theory gives you overdrive that's sensitive to changes from the guitar by winding back your volume pot. It's not an approach I would use for bass unless you're running into a tube amp and wanting power amp distortion. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of my amps could not cope with the master up full. Rather they could but the venue wouldn't.

The Orange Terror for instance. There isn't a setting on the gain nob low enough for that kind of caper. 

You'd need to employ a team of  nano robots to ease the gain up to 0.01 and even then I'd want some acro props at strategic places to be on the safe side.

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ampeg recommended my SVT3-PRO was run with the master as high as it would go and to balance the gain for the overall volume. 

I get a sound I like with my Aguilar amps by starting both volumes at 12 o'clock and adjusting the master for the overall volume.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Ricky 4000 said:

No, that can't be right. I suppose there's half an excuse for doing it that way if he's always struggling to be loud enough compared to the rest of the band, but just to get a clean tone? Nahhh... if he has plenty of amp power, his signal to noise ratio must be -- Pants.

+1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Master up full and adjust gain to give the volume you want is a pretty standard way of getting a clean tone for guitar amps. As someone said upthread it bypasses the master volume.

A master volume simply sends some of the power amp output signal to ground, passing the rest to the speakers (yes, I know they actuall pass it to the output transformer, but the net effect is still to reduce the amount of signal sent to the speakers). So turning up the master volume to max sends all of the output signal to the speaker. So adjusting the gain (or pre-amp volume as it should be called) will simply send more or less signal to the power amp. It means that the gain control adjusts the amount of distortion and the volume of the amp. If the master volume was lower, the gain would have to be turned up to get the volume needed, but it may also introduce some distortion into the signal.

With the MV up full, the full headroom of the amp is being used which means the signal can be kept free of distortion.

Well, almost free of distortion. With a valve amp there is always some distortion, but it will probably be so low it can't be heard. The lower the wattage of the amp, the more you have to turn up the gain to get the volume you want, and the more distortion you get. It is virtually impossible to get a really loud, really clean tone from a small wattage amp. That's why people who want loud and clean go for big wattage Fenders (100W Twins and the like) as they have high headroom.

Guitar amps are not bass amp. They might work along similar principles, but they are built with different aims in mind, and are voiced differently.

When I played in bands, I used to use a non-master volume AC30. In eeffect it was like having a mster volume turned up full. To get it clean was easy, just adjust the gain to get the volume you wanted. To get it to overdrive (which is what we all wanted to do!!) you needed to turn the gain up to start it distorting, but that was loud - really, really loud!

Edited by Deanol
Stupid spelling!
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Deanol said:

Master up full and adjust gain to give the volume you want is a pretty standard way of getting a clean tone for guitar amps. As someone said upthread it bypasses the master volume.

A master volume simply sends some of the power amp output signal to ground, passing the rest to the speakers (yes, I know they actuall pass it to the output transformer, but the net effect is still to reduce the amount of signal sent to the speakers). So turning up the master volume to max sends all of the output signal to the speaker. So adjusting the gain (or pre-amp volume as it should be called) will simply send more or less signal to the power amp. It means that the gain control adjusts the amount of distortion and the volume of the amp. If the master volume was lower, the gain would have to be turned up to get the volume needed, but it may also introduce some distortion into the signal.

With the MV up full, the full headroom of the amp is being used which means the signal can be kept free of distortion.

Well, almost free of distortion. With a valve amp there is always some distortion, but it will probably be so low it can't be heard. The lower the wattage of the amp, the more you have to turn up the gain to get the volume you want, and the more distortion you get. It is virtually impossible to get a really loud, really clean tone from a small wattage amp. That's why people who want loud and clean go for big wattage Fenders (100W Twins and the like) as they have high headroom.

Guitar amps are not bass amp. They might work along similar principles, but they are built with different aims in mind, and are voiced differently.

When I played in bands, I used to use a non-master volume AC30. In eeffect it was like having a mster volume turned up full. To get it clean was easy, just adjust the gain to get the volume you wanted. To get it to overdrive (which is what we all wanted to do!!) you needed to turn teh gain up to start it distorting, but that was loud - really, really loud!

That makes a lot of sense. Carry on as I am seems to be the way to go

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On a guitar amp, a master volume gives you the option of lots of distortion from the preamp whilst keeping the output level under control. For the average pub band this is likely to be an important consideration. Also (as any guitarist with a valve rig knows), cooking the power stage a bit gives a better result tonally if it can be managed at the venue you're playing.

Another way to do it with a high MV level is to set the preamp gain fairly low but have a pedal in the chain to boost the signal. With my 20w Cornford Hurricane I gigged with a graphic eq in the chain; channel input at around 3 or 4, master at around 7 if possible, and set up the graphic to give extra gain with mid boost for soloing. Because the graphic and the input stage were interactive, o/p level had to be managed via the master but I'd have it as high as I could reasonably get it.

Another option would be to use a power soak of some sort (e.g. Marshall Powerbrake). Although opinions differ as to how it affects the sound, it does give you the option of pushing the output stage harder without deafening everybody in the room.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For full disclosure, when I said...

4 hours ago, Deanol said:

When I played in bands, I used to use a non-master volume AC30. In eeffect it was like having a mster volume turned up full. To get it clean was easy, just adjust the gain to get the volume you wanted. To get it to overdrive (which is what we all wanted to do!!) you needed to turn the gain up to start it distorting, but that was loud - really, really loud! 

It should be noted that I now use hearing aids!

 

Edited by Deanol
More stupid spelling.
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For my rack mount bass rig, which has a separate pre and power amp, generally I have the master on full and adjust the input gain to get the volume I need, then any further adjustments live I do that from my bass. I normally don't go for real loud stage volume but this this method gives me a great clean articulate sound and the PA deals with the rest. 
However I can't do that option with my mesa boogie walkabout head as the background hiss is too high when the master gets anywhere near being at full level. So when using that head I probably have the master on about half and bring up the gain and volume on my bass to suit. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, jazzyvee said:

However I can't do that option with my mesa boogie walkabout head as the background hiss is too high when the master gets anywhere near being at full level.

I had that with my Ampeg SVT3-PRO. I could get the master to about 3/4 volume and stay silent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...